5 ms·

i was fine with systemd for a few years, even truly enjoying getting rid of hacky docker workflows in place of machined. then i start to find out it is full of

i was fine with systemd for a few years, even truly enjoying getting rid of hacky docker workflows in place of machined. then i start to find out it is full of rando backdoors intended for VMs, which will run just the same on your bare metal. For example, just to list the very last one, you can inject smbios data that will be parsed to create files in your system. very convenient to drop passwords and keyfiles around a vm... unless it is the firmware on your actual bios doing the same. And we know how common persistence via bios is. sigh. but as you mention correctly, it have crushed and dominated linux. so i guess i just waste a week or some working around those things later, as usual.

dv_dt 3y ago
It may shift to a different community balance seeing how RedHat employs a lot of the main contributors to systemd and more recently are showing signs of acting in a more closed manner.
- gary_0 3y ago
  The main systemd guy, Lennart Poettering, recently left Red Hat to go work for Microsoft. Hmm...
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    Oh I didn't realize that. Maybe similar teeth, different dragon. I'm cautious about Microsoft, but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member - though if there are fewer larger balancing orgs - who knows.
    - inetknght 3y ago
      > about Microsoft, but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member All it takes is to look around at what Microsoft is doing to gestures vaguely to see the writing on the wall for how Microsoft sees Linux. Advertisements on the home screen? Advertisements on the every screen? Login darkpatterns? Configuration resets on updates? Forceful browser choices? Forced updates? UEFI shenanigans? Boot manager shenanigans?
      - dv_dt 3y ago
        Yup, the windows OS (as opposed to Linux) is where they have no counterbalancing reason to not pursue darker patterns. So it's a window into unchecked tendencies.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        It looks like....Android. As proven by OEM distributions on by gone netbooks, and Android flavours, OEMs will always do what they do best. In what concerns Windows, unfortunately it appears only Azure, Office and XBox matter now.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        Or you know, Microsoft is a giga-company with no singular goal (besides increasing revenue). Improving and “destroying” linux may be simultaneously goals to separate areas of the same company, and due to bureaucracy I really can’t take this conteos seriously.
    - Arch-TK 3y ago
      >but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member LOL Its amazing how easy it is. I guess if you spend your entire history being a shitty company and then spend a couple of years pretending to be marginally less shitty then you can dupe a bunch of people.
- hawski 3y ago
  Being now run increasingly more and more by IBM mothership I guess systemd may become a very profitable cow to fatten for them.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    How though? How will they make money off it? I do think they had commercial aspirations work systemd, but more about "being the company that invented..." Than a direct cash cow. This is in contrast to the play canonical makes with snaps that has 30% app store tax written all over it.
    - sliken 3y ago
      The oracle pattern of making it more complicated = more support costs/more consulting/more profit
      - kaba0 3y ago
        That’s just baseless fearmongering conteo. Like, I honestly you think that is a feasible financial strategy?!
        wkat4242 3y ago
        Oracle lives very well with basically extorting their customers...
Eduard 3y ago
> then i start to find out it is full of rando backdoors intended for VMs, Do you have some links to share?
- egberts1 3y ago
  Got hit by a Bitcoin hacker via a seldomly-used systemd unit file. Now working on a replacement to systemd-tmpfiled for OpenRC. Run these sysvinit, OpenRC and maintain systemd as well at this shop.
Asooka 3y ago
The unit and service file formats are honestly fine, it should be possible to have a second implementation. We have several varieties of SysV init already.
- bandrami 3y ago
  The unit file format is what I don't like about it. A giant spaghetti code mess where dependencies can be literally anywhere and the final imperative result is completely opaque. An init system, ultimately, does a bunch of one time actions to bring the system up; it really does just work better as an imperative script.
  - esarbe 3y ago
    How are Systemd's unit files any worse than unconstrained init scripts written in a Turing complete language with even basic stuff - like PID files - managed manually?
    - bandrami 3y ago
      Because they are opaquely translated into an imperative sequence but you never get to see it. Also who are these people who have complicated sysv scripts? I've heard this for years and never really understood it. One script per service with a stop and start command (and maybe a status if you want to get fancy) and runlevel definitions that start and stop them. It's not rocket surgery, and it's a hell or a lot easier to debug than a declarative system definition.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        > Because they are opaquely translated into an imperative sequence but you never get to see it Into correct imperative sequence. That’s the whole point of declarative things. You can’t feasibly write it correctly otherwise. You are writing programming languages over assembly for largely this same reason.
      - pjmlp 3y ago

dv_dt 3y ago

It may shift to a different community balance seeing how RedHat employs a lot of the main contributors to systemd and more recently are showing signs of acting in a more closed manner.

gary_0 3y ago
The main systemd guy, Lennart Poettering, recently left Red Hat to go work for Microsoft. Hmm...
- dv_dt 3y ago
  Oh I didn't realize that. Maybe similar teeth, different dragon. I'm cautious about Microsoft, but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member - though if there are fewer larger balancing orgs - who knows.
  - inetknght 3y ago
    > about Microsoft, but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member All it takes is to look around at what Microsoft is doing to gestures vaguely to see the writing on the wall for how Microsoft sees Linux. Advertisements on the home screen? Advertisements on the every screen? Login darkpatterns? Configuration resets on updates? Forceful browser choices? Forced updates? UEFI shenanigans? Boot manager shenanigans?
    - dv_dt 3y ago
      Yup, the windows OS (as opposed to Linux) is where they have no counterbalancing reason to not pursue darker patterns. So it's a window into unchecked tendencies.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It looks like....Android. As proven by OEM distributions on by gone netbooks, and Android flavours, OEMs will always do what they do best. In what concerns Windows, unfortunately it appears only Azure, Office and XBox matter now.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Or you know, Microsoft is a giga-company with no singular goal (besides increasing revenue). Improving and “destroying” linux may be simultaneously goals to separate areas of the same company, and due to bureaucracy I really can’t take this conteos seriously.
  - Arch-TK 3y ago
    >but recently I'd have to say they've been a reasonable Linux community member LOL Its amazing how easy it is. I guess if you spend your entire history being a shitty company and then spend a couple of years pretending to be marginally less shitty then you can dupe a bunch of people.
hawski 3y ago
Being now run increasingly more and more by IBM mothership I guess systemd may become a very profitable cow to fatten for them.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  How though? How will they make money off it? I do think they had commercial aspirations work systemd, but more about "being the company that invented..." Than a direct cash cow. This is in contrast to the play canonical makes with snaps that has 30% app store tax written all over it.
  - sliken 3y ago
    The oracle pattern of making it more complicated = more support costs/more consulting/more profit
    - kaba0 3y ago
      That’s just baseless fearmongering conteo. Like, I honestly you think that is a feasible financial strategy?!
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Oracle lives very well with basically extorting their customers...

Eduard 3y ago

> then i start to find out it is full of rando backdoors intended for VMs, Do you have some links to share?

egberts1 3y ago
Got hit by a Bitcoin hacker via a seldomly-used systemd unit file. Now working on a replacement to systemd-tmpfiled for OpenRC. Run these sysvinit, OpenRC and maintain systemd as well at this shop.

Asooka 3y ago

The unit and service file formats are honestly fine, it should be possible to have a second implementation. We have several varieties of SysV init already.

bandrami 3y ago
The unit file format is what I don't like about it. A giant spaghetti code mess where dependencies can be literally anywhere and the final imperative result is completely opaque. An init system, ultimately, does a bunch of one time actions to bring the system up; it really does just work better as an imperative script.
- esarbe 3y ago
  How are Systemd's unit files any worse than unconstrained init scripts written in a Turing complete language with even basic stuff - like PID files - managed manually?
  - bandrami 3y ago
    Because they are opaquely translated into an imperative sequence but you never get to see it. Also who are these people who have complicated sysv scripts? I've heard this for years and never really understood it. One script per service with a stop and start command (and maybe a status if you want to get fancy) and runlevel definitions that start and stop them. It's not rocket surgery, and it's a hell or a lot easier to debug than a declarative system definition.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      > Because they are opaquely translated into an imperative sequence but you never get to see it Into correct imperative sequence. That’s the whole point of declarative things. You can’t feasibly write it correctly otherwise. You are writing programming languages over assembly for largely this same reason.
    - pjmlp 3y ago