5 ms·

Shipping a device that will overheat and reboot when the device is a couple years old and fixing it by silently throttling the device isn't pro consumer either

Shipping a device that will overheat and reboot when the device is a couple years old and fixing it by silently throttling the device isn't pro consumer either Those devices really should have been recalled or offered a generous trade-in value to account for the fundamental design flaw

soraminazuki 3y ago
So that's every device with rechargeable batteries then.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  Not really, most devices are designed with a commination of passive and active cooling as needed to operate under normal conditions. Apple just has a history of prioritizing design asthenic and they're willing to push the limits on thermal regulation.
  - soraminazuki 3y ago
    > most devices are designed with a commination of passive and active cooling Smartphones with active cooling? You must live in world that's very different from the one I live in. Also, as mentioned in other replies, your whole point about "overheating and rebooting" is a straw man. Throttling was introduced to address battery aging. Again, a problem that affects every device with rechargeable batteries. > Apple just has a history of prioritizing design asthenic and they're willing to push the limits on thermal regulation. Except they do have thermal controls...
scarface_74 3y ago
Have you found a new battery technology where that is mid the case?
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  Device design is always constrained by the current technology. It isn't impossible to make a phone with current battery tech that doesn't overheat after a year or two of normal use Apple just pushed design to far and underestimated the cooling/heat dissipation required
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    You keep mentioning cooling / heat - this is the first I’ve ever heard of this in relation to batterygate, and in fact the first I’ve ever heard of any battery “overheating” (generating more heat?) as a result of a normal ageing process - where are you getting this from?
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      My understanding was that the concerns were related to degraded batteries having a lower voltage potential. The hardware and software were shipped with performance optimized to the initial voltage curves of the battery. Once that voltage curve decreases slightly the device will either reboot when the processor attempts to run at a higher clock speed than the battery voltage can support, or the battery can technically keep up though begin to overheat as the operating voltage is a higher draw than the battery can safely handle. Dont get me wrong I'm not aware of any concerns over the phone actuary catching fire like that one generation of Samsung years ago, but the degraded battery would either lead to reboots or excess heat.
      - thebruce87m 3y ago
        There is no “overdrive” as you suggest. With a higher internal resistance you get a bigger voltage drop internally. There is way to overcome this.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    The phone didn’t overheat. That’s just the point. The options were either the phone slows down to keep the phone from shutting off when the battery got weak or the phone shuts off. What was the other alternative?
thebruce87m 3y ago
It has nothing to do with overheating. It is battery ageing. The internal resistance of a battery increases as it ages, leading to brownouts when peak current happens. The throttling feature still exists in iOS. All that’s changed is that you will be made aware that it’s happening and you can switch it off if you prefer a brownout when your battery is degraded. Other manufacturers are happy to let your handset reboot, it could lead to another sale for them. Some would call that planned obsolescence.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > It has nothing to do with overheating. It is battery ageing. The internal resistance of a battery increases as it ages, leading to brownouts when peak current happens yawn Why my 8 years old Moto XT910 eat the battery like cookies but did not reboot? It's battery wasnot only old, but swollen a bit, it's USB port was damaged so sometimes the charge didn't actually happened... but it still could survive a couple of hours with enabled radio and GPS, serving a navigation app with 3G updates? And didn't reboot?
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    I’m not sure what answer you’re looking for here - each system is different. Design, manufacturing, usage patterns will all play a part. When batterygate happened my wife’s phone was throttled but mine wasn’t. She didn’t care and never got the battery replaced but she definitely would have upgraded sooner if it was rebooting. Are you saying that Apple use different battery technology to everyone else? Or what is your point?
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      I had one of the early generation 17" MacBook pros that ended up with a swollen battery. And when I say swollen, I mean the case eventually split in two and was about 1/2" taller than it was originally. Granted this happened because glue in the battery was compromised by excess heat because Steve Jobs preferred heat over the sound of a fan, but the machine never rebooted or shut down due to heat or decreased max voltage.
babypuncher 3y ago
It's not a fundamental design flaw, this will happen with every device that ships with a modern rechargeable battery. Android does the exact same thing now, but I don't see people boycotting Google over it. The problem was that Apple didn't communicate this to the user. People didn't know why their phone was slow.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  I haven't actually seen Google specifically call out that their devices will be throttled in a year or two. I'd be curious to see thatif you have a link though, I haven't kept as up to date with the more recent pixel devices.
  - efreak 3y ago
    Anecdotally: a while back while I was running a long build in termux in a warm room with my tablet plugged in to charge, I got a notification that my device was being throttled to prevent thermal damage. I wouldn't be surprised if this was common I haven't gotten such a message since, however I also don't have a habit of building software on my tablet (I have a vague memory that whatever it was didn't offer a cross compilation method outside of qemu/emulation)

soraminazuki 3y ago

So that's every device with rechargeable batteries then.

flagrant_taco 3y ago
Not really, most devices are designed with a commination of passive and active cooling as needed to operate under normal conditions. Apple just has a history of prioritizing design asthenic and they're willing to push the limits on thermal regulation.
- soraminazuki 3y ago
  > most devices are designed with a commination of passive and active cooling Smartphones with active cooling? You must live in world that's very different from the one I live in. Also, as mentioned in other replies, your whole point about "overheating and rebooting" is a straw man. Throttling was introduced to address battery aging. Again, a problem that affects every device with rechargeable batteries. > Apple just has a history of prioritizing design asthenic and they're willing to push the limits on thermal regulation. Except they do have thermal controls...

scarface_74 3y ago

Have you found a new battery technology where that is mid the case?

flagrant_taco 3y ago
Device design is always constrained by the current technology. It isn't impossible to make a phone with current battery tech that doesn't overheat after a year or two of normal use Apple just pushed design to far and underestimated the cooling/heat dissipation required
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  You keep mentioning cooling / heat - this is the first I’ve ever heard of this in relation to batterygate, and in fact the first I’ve ever heard of any battery “overheating” (generating more heat?) as a result of a normal ageing process - where are you getting this from?
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    My understanding was that the concerns were related to degraded batteries having a lower voltage potential. The hardware and software were shipped with performance optimized to the initial voltage curves of the battery. Once that voltage curve decreases slightly the device will either reboot when the processor attempts to run at a higher clock speed than the battery voltage can support, or the battery can technically keep up though begin to overheat as the operating voltage is a higher draw than the battery can safely handle. Dont get me wrong I'm not aware of any concerns over the phone actuary catching fire like that one generation of Samsung years ago, but the degraded battery would either lead to reboots or excess heat.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      There is no “overdrive” as you suggest. With a higher internal resistance you get a bigger voltage drop internally. There is way to overcome this.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  The phone didn’t overheat. That’s just the point. The options were either the phone slows down to keep the phone from shutting off when the battery got weak or the phone shuts off. What was the other alternative?

thebruce87m 3y ago

It has nothing to do with overheating. It is battery ageing. The internal resistance of a battery increases as it ages, leading to brownouts when peak current happens. The throttling feature still exists in iOS. All that’s changed is that you will be made aware that it’s happening and you can switch it off if you prefer a brownout when your battery is degraded. Other manufacturers are happy to let your handset reboot, it could lead to another sale for them. Some would call that planned obsolescence.

justsomehnguy 3y ago
> It has nothing to do with overheating. It is battery ageing. The internal resistance of a battery increases as it ages, leading to brownouts when peak current happens yawn Why my 8 years old Moto XT910 eat the battery like cookies but did not reboot? It's battery wasnot only old, but swollen a bit, it's USB port was damaged so sometimes the charge didn't actually happened... but it still could survive a couple of hours with enabled radio and GPS, serving a navigation app with 3G updates? And didn't reboot?
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  I’m not sure what answer you’re looking for here - each system is different. Design, manufacturing, usage patterns will all play a part. When batterygate happened my wife’s phone was throttled but mine wasn’t. She didn’t care and never got the battery replaced but she definitely would have upgraded sooner if it was rebooting. Are you saying that Apple use different battery technology to everyone else? Or what is your point?
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    I had one of the early generation 17" MacBook pros that ended up with a swollen battery. And when I say swollen, I mean the case eventually split in two and was about 1/2" taller than it was originally. Granted this happened because glue in the battery was compromised by excess heat because Steve Jobs preferred heat over the sound of a fan, but the machine never rebooted or shut down due to heat or decreased max voltage.

babypuncher 3y ago

It's not a fundamental design flaw, this will happen with every device that ships with a modern rechargeable battery. Android does the exact same thing now, but I don't see people boycotting Google over it. The problem was that Apple didn't communicate this to the user. People didn't know why their phone was slow.

flagrant_taco 3y ago
I haven't actually seen Google specifically call out that their devices will be throttled in a year or two. I'd be curious to see thatif you have a link though, I haven't kept as up to date with the more recent pixel devices.
- efreak 3y ago
  Anecdotally: a while back while I was running a long build in termux in a warm room with my tablet plugged in to charge, I got a notification that my device was being throttled to prevent thermal damage. I wouldn't be surprised if this was common I haven't gotten such a message since, however I also don't have a habit of building software on my tablet (I have a vague memory that whatever it was didn't offer a cross compilation method outside of qemu/emulation)