4 ms·

Seems like a choice between continuing to compete in one market, or competing in the same market while also absolutely dominating another.

by pkulak 3y ago

rootusrootus 3y ago
Which market is the one they will dominate? Supporting NACS is not a hurdle, and there are already quite a lot of non-Tesla DC fast chargers in existence. Some of them have already announced they'll add NACS plugs themselves. There's no magic to building another charging station, and if everyone supports plug-and-charge (or hell, just reliable credit card processing), it'll be a super competitive market with tight margins.
- pkulak 3y ago
  All well and good to say, but every other company that has tried to charge EVs has utterly failed, and it's been over a decade now. Once customers can move freely between all the networks, the ones with bad reliability will disappear. Right now that's every network not Tesla. Like you said, the margins are tight. EA can't just lower their prices. And even if they could, who's gonna take a chance on a shitty network during a family road trip to save a couple bucks? Not me.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > but every other company that has tried to charge EVs has utterly failed You need a broader perspective. Europe is a bigger EV market than North America is at present. European charging networks that are going strong, offer faster charging than Tesla, and are growing include Fastned, Circle K, EnBW, Ionity, Shell, BP, etc. They've had the benefit of Europe standardizing on CCS type 2 Combo. When everyone can build to the same standard it drives investment and development.
    - pkulak 3y ago
      This is the North American charging standard. North America previously standardized on CCS1 (which is exactly the same as CCS2, but without 3-phase support, which we don't need here) and it has done nothing. My perspective is plenty broad. What point are you trying to make, exactly? That if we just continue doing exactly as we have, NA will turn into Europe eventually?
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        > CCS1 (which is exactly the same as CCS2, but without 3-phase support, which we don't need here) No, it's a mechanically different plug. > What point are you trying to make, exactly? That every other company that has tried to charge EVs has not utterly failed. Your perspective is narrow and it has caused you to believe a falsehood.
        pkulak 3y ago
        Okay, I sincerely apologize for not saying that "every company in North America" has failed. I probably just figured that since this whole conversation is about the North American Charging Standard it was implied. But you are right. There are companies in Europe that have succeed. Maybe Mars too? Haven't been there, not driving my NACS car there, but you can win that argument too, if you like. And the plug is mechanically different in that it has one fewer pin due too... drum roll please... no 3-phase support. But it is mechanically different, so you can win there too, if you like. Look at you! Winning all the pedantry awards today. So much fun. I mean, we're not having a damn conversation about anything, just arguing over every single word I say that you can possibly find an issue with, but to some people, this is as much fun as you can have. Pi is exactly 3.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        > Okay, I sincerely apologize I don't have much use for your sorrys. It's better you think about what you're saying rather than running around in ignorance. Your narrow outlook prevents you from seeing better alternatives. > And the plug is mechanically different in that it has one fewer pin No, Type 2 has a different shape and two more pins than Type 1. CCS type 2 is used in more countries than any other EV plug. Have a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System Broaden your horizons.

Seems like a choice between continuing to compete in one market, or competing in the same market while also absolutely dominating another.

by pkulak 3y ago

Seems like a choice between continuing to compete in one market, or competing in the same market while also absolutely dominating another.

rootusrootus 3y ago

Which market is the one they will dominate? Supporting NACS is not a hurdle, and there are already quite a lot of non-Tesla DC fast chargers in existence. Some of them have already announced they'll add NACS plugs themselves. There's no magic to building another charging station, and if everyone supports plug-and-charge (or hell, just reliable credit card processing), it'll be a super competitive market with tight margins.

pkulak 3y ago
All well and good to say, but every other company that has tried to charge EVs has utterly failed, and it's been over a decade now. Once customers can move freely between all the networks, the ones with bad reliability will disappear. Right now that's every network not Tesla. Like you said, the margins are tight. EA can't just lower their prices. And even if they could, who's gonna take a chance on a shitty network during a family road trip to save a couple bucks? Not me.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > but every other company that has tried to charge EVs has utterly failed You need a broader perspective. Europe is a bigger EV market than North America is at present. European charging networks that are going strong, offer faster charging than Tesla, and are growing include Fastned, Circle K, EnBW, Ionity, Shell, BP, etc. They've had the benefit of Europe standardizing on CCS type 2 Combo. When everyone can build to the same standard it drives investment and development.
  - pkulak 3y ago
    This is the North American charging standard. North America previously standardized on CCS1 (which is exactly the same as CCS2, but without 3-phase support, which we don't need here) and it has done nothing. My perspective is plenty broad. What point are you trying to make, exactly? That if we just continue doing exactly as we have, NA will turn into Europe eventually?
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      > CCS1 (which is exactly the same as CCS2, but without 3-phase support, which we don't need here) No, it's a mechanically different plug. > What point are you trying to make, exactly? That every other company that has tried to charge EVs has not utterly failed. Your perspective is narrow and it has caused you to believe a falsehood.
      - pkulak 3y ago
        Okay, I sincerely apologize for not saying that "every company in North America" has failed. I probably just figured that since this whole conversation is about the North American Charging Standard it was implied. But you are right. There are companies in Europe that have succeed. Maybe Mars too? Haven't been there, not driving my NACS car there, but you can win that argument too, if you like. And the plug is mechanically different in that it has one fewer pin due too... drum roll please... no 3-phase support. But it is mechanically different, so you can win there too, if you like. Look at you! Winning all the pedantry awards today. So much fun. I mean, we're not having a damn conversation about anything, just arguing over every single word I say that you can possibly find an issue with, but to some people, this is as much fun as you can have. Pi is exactly 3.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        > Okay, I sincerely apologize I don't have much use for your sorrys. It's better you think about what you're saying rather than running around in ignorance. Your narrow outlook prevents you from seeing better alternatives. > And the plug is mechanically different in that it has one fewer pin No, Type 2 has a different shape and two more pins than Type 1. CCS type 2 is used in more countries than any other EV plug. Have a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System Broaden your horizons.