6 ms·

In what sense would AR ads be inescapable? I have no plan to ever buy one of these headsets. If the streets of London became Minority Report-esque e.g. hologr

by throwaway22032 3y ago

In what sense would AR ads be inescapable? I have no plan to ever buy one of these headsets. If the streets of London became Minority Report-esque e.g. holographic loud projections, I can just move five or ten miles down the road to somewhere slightly less urban. It'd be significantly less expensive too. I mean, almost all tube station adverts are still just paper billboards, clearly something is preventing them from being screens.

alexanderbz 3y ago
If AR glasses become the only device we have (no macs or iPhones), then these ads could be everywhere. Almost like modern tech billboards. Obviously you can just not buy the product, but when everyone else has one it will be hard to do that. Imagine not owning a smartphone right now (a quick example).
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  You can count clicks with eye tracking. If you look at it then they know.
  - ballenf 3y ago
    They could rotate the code every few seconds.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    It's worth noting this kind of thing is why the Apple headset OS is designed specifically to keep eye tracking information to an OS-only layer, at least outside of traditional VR style full immersion apps.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      How many times are we going to fall for this? It's all fun and games until Apple is facing a bad quarter which is not if but when. And even if they don't share it- they can still use it for selling ads on their platform.
      - ajmurmann 3y ago
        Apple has been pretty good at sticking to the premium market and not exploiting its users. However, even if we assume that Apple stays that way, their products might not be affordable for all users and many will choose less privacy if it comes with a reduced price, especially if they can barely afford a device as is.
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    It'll be amazing if that level of tracking proves advertising is grossly overpriced and only modestly effective.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      Apple is extremely transparent and they'll definitely share data that proves the ads they show are a ripoff.
      - EA-3167 3y ago
        A fair point well made.
- causi 3y ago
  Why would adblock be less effective on AR glasses than it is on my phone?
  - pengaru 3y ago
    adblock assumes a world where the web is an actual supported first-class medium of society I think it's pretty clear where that trajectory is already headed. Proprietary Apps are not the web, and your adblock browser extensions are irrelevant when everything relevant is an App. FTR this is not the future I want, it's just the future I see. We need a new and better Mozilla analog to champion the web browser and push things forward to where the best way to develop the best Apps is the open Web. It's a huge problem when companies clearly vested in a closed-App walled-garden future dominate the browser market.
    - crooked-v 3y ago
      If everything is an app, then just... don't download the apps that have bullshit ads.
    - tmchu 3y ago
      The trajectory seems toward exclusive AR apps is not that strong in my opinion. There are still billions of people out there without access to XR headset and have no incentive to spend upward of thousands of dollar for one yet. We already have AR/VR (XR) being built into the current web (W3C webxr), and people building out Web based AR. Take a look at 8th Wall. There will be a long transition period where webxr have the chance to shine and prevent the wall garden future of private apps.
    - Semaphor 3y ago
      Besides the obvious option of not using those apps, I have an adblocker on Android, and it works perfectly fine with my apps, so I’m not sure why that would change.
      - pengaru 3y ago
        > I have an adblocker on Android, and it works perfectly fine with my apps, so I’m not sure why that would change. That's simply unsustainable long-term. It happens to work today that you can trivially block them at the network level, because they're still unsophisticated about how ads are delivered, in this still mixed open-Web-transitioning-to-closed-Apps world. Long-term, ad-serving becomes more sophisticated, in-band, and indistinguishable from any other App data over an encrypted stream from the App vendor and/or walled-garden provider, or just bundled with the now-normalized constant App "updates" without the need for network access when displaying them at all. You're on the losing side of an arms race when everything's closed. Even if you prefer living in walled gardens, preserving the open Web escape hatch does a lot of heavy lifting in the checks and balances department. If it's entirely deprecated by society, the walled gardens will get exponentially worse with their increased leverage.
- ericbarrett 3y ago
  I'm skeptical we'll see that any time soon. I interned at a NASA Ames lab that was testing AR, and there seemed to be no way to get depth perception correct on rendered objects directly overlaid on a see-through lens; there was lots of unpredictable variability in perceived depth by subject and background and even time of day. And I don't see us walking around with Geordi LaForge-style visors—simulated AR—any time soon.
- rapnie 3y ago
  Hyper Reality by Keiichi Matsuda: http://hyper-reality.co/ http://hyper-reality.co/
  - Animats 3y ago
    Yes, that's the classic. I've linked that video before, but didn't know the creator had a web site. That's what I expected Facebook/Meta/Oculus/Zuckerberg to ship as augmented reality. It's quite do-able with Apple's new headgear, although that thing is too bulky and doesn't have the battery life for full-time wear. There's a line in the Ready Player One movie where the big bad is discussing how much of the human visual field they can fill with ads before inducing seizures. I was expecting this years ago, as Google Glass 2.x, but nobody has yet been able to get the size and cost down for untethered headgear.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago
  > Imagine not owning a smartphone right now I don't, and life goes on as before
  - yomlica8 3y ago
    In the US, I think you can still survive fine without a smartphone, although it becoming more difficult. During the pandemic we had to install an app to check our kid into preschool. Ridiculous, but I guess you could argue I could have made a stink or switched preshools. Asia and European sound a lot more far gone in this area though and I feel like the days are numbered here.
    - Semaphor 3y ago
      > Asia and European sound a lot more far gone As a German: Why? All scam-app checkins during the pandemic were also doable via paper (I refused to install the damn app), pretty much everything I can do on my phone, I can also do by paper (which I have to for my health insurance, damn TK is not only the most digitally progressive health insurance, they also seem to be the only app existing on Android with an almost uncircumventable root detection). The only exception would be my bank, but that’s because I chose a neobank which requires a smartphone to even sign up.
      - yomlica8 3y ago
        Glad to hear it isn't as far gone as I've been led to believe, but the situation does sound similar to over here. Not using a smart phone increasingly gives you a second class citizen status and some companies even require it. I don't hold much hope for a reversal of the trend.
        _a_a_a_ 3y ago
        > some companies even require it which? If they require a works phone they will give you one. Leave it at home and use it only for work.
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  The idea that everyone is going to walk around outside constantly using a headset is not a version of reality that I ever think will happen. There are enough people who like, enjoy breathing normal air and seeing plants. Maybe if it becomes a brain implant at some point. I hope to be long gone before then.
  - Symmetry 3y ago
    I can imagine it, but not if there are intrusive adds.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    > Maybe if it becomes a brain implant at some point. I hope to be long gone before then. This has been a big fear of mine since I started studying CS. Implants that are still not fully proven safe, but create a massive productivity gain. This might make the choice to get a sketchy implant or be unemployed.
- RajT88 3y ago
  It'll be basically like smartphones and computers now. The more savvy users will have a better experience, exerting more control using free (or crowd-funded) tools which block ads. The mainstream companies will continue to make the computing experience an ad-filled privacy nightmare for everyone else. Also like now is the "Wargames" aspect of it - the computing landscape is already such an ad-filled privacy nightmare that, "The only winning move is not to play".
tiedieconderoga 3y ago
Just wait until you can't see a restaurant's menu, in-flight announcements, traffic advisories, etc. The pandemic opened the door to making a piece of technology a mandatory requirement to participate in society. It used to be possible to live without a smartphone, now you really need to be able to read and produce QR codes¹. Why couldn't the same thing happen with AR, considering how expensive it is for governments and companies to put displays and audio announcements everywhere? ¹: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/04/my-life-without-a-smartphone-is-getting-harder-and-harder https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/04/my-lif...
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Around here (Ontario) places that insisted on QR code menus seems to be starting to roll it back. Probably under backlash from public (esp older people) who sees it as obnoxious. Myself I raise a stink every time; I don't like the tracking implications. If businesses insist on it, I try to take my business elsewhere.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    I do art projects involving QR code, at first I was happy about this development because it was getting people to scan QR codes (no mean feat on the OS whose logo is a trash can) but I found the backlash disturbing.
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  I haven't scanned a QR code for years and I live in a major city. I used one QR menu during coronavirus and then started going elsewhere. To be honest restaurants during the pandemic were awful anyway, far more fun to just have friends over for dinner. I have a fairly varied social life, if anything I probably drink too much. This doesn't match up with reality to me. Unavoidable means just that - cannot be avoided. To avoid using QR codes doesn't even involve trying.
- tomjen3 3y ago
  You don't actually need a smartphone, which is good because a lot of older people do not have them or can't use them. I think people sometimes forget that you can inconvinience a waitress without being an asshole about it (they are there to provide service) and that being able to be a customer is important enough that most businesses would prefer staff spend time helping you. Sure they would prefer you have a smartphone, and it may be less convinient but that doesn't mean they can't work to accomondate you.
hinkley 3y ago
> I have no plan to ever buy one of these headsets. I used to be in a social circle where a couple people claimed they would rather die than ever own an ebook. I wish I had written down which people they were so I could RemindMe in ten years to see if they were enjoying the afterlife or not. When we are in the early adoption phase there are always late adopters who expect to be never adopters. But peer pressure happens, and some products actually listen to complaints and improve the product to overcome reservations. And then everything goes to hell in a hand basket.
- aprinsen 3y ago
  Except I never bought cryptocurrency and I don't have TikTok and you being right about eBooks has no bearing on the success or failure of personal AR
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Youtube is giving you TikTok whether you want it or not. Not all fads get adopted. AR is in my opinion still a tech before its time, which makes it a fad - for now - but not necessarily forever. Cellphones and particularly smart watches are a form of ambient technology that have caught on, and I think it's only a matter of process shrinkage and battery tech before it happens. Say another 7-10 years for battery density to double again. Early ebooks were objectively as bad as current or last generation VR equipment. Nobody was going to adopt that. It's a matter of connecting the dots. If you don't like the idea of everyone in AR, that's fine. Then I recommend you start now to participate in environmental and conservation special interest groups, because there is a day coming when philosophers, ascetics, and people who touch trees on purpose are the main demographics of people who actively reject augmentation for augmentation's sake. There are loud opinions in each of those groups, and they have merit. And frankly we could use a few more science-minded tree huggers to dilute the conspiracy theorists.

alexanderbz 3y ago

If AR glasses become the only device we have (no macs or iPhones), then these ads could be everywhere. Almost like modern tech billboards. Obviously you can just not buy the product, but when everyone else has one it will be hard to do that. Imagine not owning a smartphone right now (a quick example).

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
You can count clicks with eye tracking. If you look at it then they know.
- ballenf 3y ago
  They could rotate the code every few seconds.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  It's worth noting this kind of thing is why the Apple headset OS is designed specifically to keep eye tracking information to an OS-only layer, at least outside of traditional VR style full immersion apps.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    How many times are we going to fall for this? It's all fun and games until Apple is facing a bad quarter which is not if but when. And even if they don't share it- they can still use it for selling ads on their platform.
    - ajmurmann 3y ago
      Apple has been pretty good at sticking to the premium market and not exploiting its users. However, even if we assume that Apple stays that way, their products might not be affordable for all users and many will choose less privacy if it comes with a reduced price, especially if they can barely afford a device as is.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  It'll be amazing if that level of tracking proves advertising is grossly overpriced and only modestly effective.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    Apple is extremely transparent and they'll definitely share data that proves the ads they show are a ripoff.
    - EA-3167 3y ago
      A fair point well made.
causi 3y ago
Why would adblock be less effective on AR glasses than it is on my phone?
- pengaru 3y ago
  adblock assumes a world where the web is an actual supported first-class medium of society I think it's pretty clear where that trajectory is already headed. Proprietary Apps are not the web, and your adblock browser extensions are irrelevant when everything relevant is an App. FTR this is not the future I want, it's just the future I see. We need a new and better Mozilla analog to champion the web browser and push things forward to where the best way to develop the best Apps is the open Web. It's a huge problem when companies clearly vested in a closed-App walled-garden future dominate the browser market.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    If everything is an app, then just... don't download the apps that have bullshit ads.
  - tmchu 3y ago
    The trajectory seems toward exclusive AR apps is not that strong in my opinion. There are still billions of people out there without access to XR headset and have no incentive to spend upward of thousands of dollar for one yet. We already have AR/VR (XR) being built into the current web (W3C webxr), and people building out Web based AR. Take a look at 8th Wall. There will be a long transition period where webxr have the chance to shine and prevent the wall garden future of private apps.
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    Besides the obvious option of not using those apps, I have an adblocker on Android, and it works perfectly fine with my apps, so I’m not sure why that would change.
    - pengaru 3y ago
      > I have an adblocker on Android, and it works perfectly fine with my apps, so I’m not sure why that would change. That's simply unsustainable long-term. It happens to work today that you can trivially block them at the network level, because they're still unsophisticated about how ads are delivered, in this still mixed open-Web-transitioning-to-closed-Apps world. Long-term, ad-serving becomes more sophisticated, in-band, and indistinguishable from any other App data over an encrypted stream from the App vendor and/or walled-garden provider, or just bundled with the now-normalized constant App "updates" without the need for network access when displaying them at all. You're on the losing side of an arms race when everything's closed. Even if you prefer living in walled gardens, preserving the open Web escape hatch does a lot of heavy lifting in the checks and balances department. If it's entirely deprecated by society, the walled gardens will get exponentially worse with their increased leverage.
ericbarrett 3y ago
I'm skeptical we'll see that any time soon. I interned at a NASA Ames lab that was testing AR, and there seemed to be no way to get depth perception correct on rendered objects directly overlaid on a see-through lens; there was lots of unpredictable variability in perceived depth by subject and background and even time of day. And I don't see us walking around with Geordi LaForge-style visors—simulated AR—any time soon.
rapnie 3y ago
Hyper Reality by Keiichi Matsuda: http://hyper-reality.co/ http://hyper-reality.co/
- Animats 3y ago
  Yes, that's the classic. I've linked that video before, but didn't know the creator had a web site. That's what I expected Facebook/Meta/Oculus/Zuckerberg to ship as augmented reality. It's quite do-able with Apple's new headgear, although that thing is too bulky and doesn't have the battery life for full-time wear. There's a line in the Ready Player One movie where the big bad is discussing how much of the human visual field they can fill with ads before inducing seizures. I was expecting this years ago, as Google Glass 2.x, but nobody has yet been able to get the size and cost down for untethered headgear.
_a_a_a_ 3y ago
> Imagine not owning a smartphone right now I don't, and life goes on as before
- yomlica8 3y ago
  In the US, I think you can still survive fine without a smartphone, although it becoming more difficult. During the pandemic we had to install an app to check our kid into preschool. Ridiculous, but I guess you could argue I could have made a stink or switched preshools. Asia and European sound a lot more far gone in this area though and I feel like the days are numbered here.
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    > Asia and European sound a lot more far gone As a German: Why? All scam-app checkins during the pandemic were also doable via paper (I refused to install the damn app), pretty much everything I can do on my phone, I can also do by paper (which I have to for my health insurance, damn TK is not only the most digitally progressive health insurance, they also seem to be the only app existing on Android with an almost uncircumventable root detection). The only exception would be my bank, but that’s because I chose a neobank which requires a smartphone to even sign up.
    - yomlica8 3y ago
      Glad to hear it isn't as far gone as I've been led to believe, but the situation does sound similar to over here. Not using a smart phone increasingly gives you a second class citizen status and some companies even require it. I don't hold much hope for a reversal of the trend.
      - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
        > some companies even require it which? If they require a works phone they will give you one. Leave it at home and use it only for work.
throwaway22032 3y ago
The idea that everyone is going to walk around outside constantly using a headset is not a version of reality that I ever think will happen. There are enough people who like, enjoy breathing normal air and seeing plants. Maybe if it becomes a brain implant at some point. I hope to be long gone before then.
- Symmetry 3y ago
  I can imagine it, but not if there are intrusive adds.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  > Maybe if it becomes a brain implant at some point. I hope to be long gone before then. This has been a big fear of mine since I started studying CS. Implants that are still not fully proven safe, but create a massive productivity gain. This might make the choice to get a sketchy implant or be unemployed.
RajT88 3y ago
It'll be basically like smartphones and computers now. The more savvy users will have a better experience, exerting more control using free (or crowd-funded) tools which block ads. The mainstream companies will continue to make the computing experience an ad-filled privacy nightmare for everyone else. Also like now is the "Wargames" aspect of it - the computing landscape is already such an ad-filled privacy nightmare that, "The only winning move is not to play".

tiedieconderoga 3y ago

Just wait until you can't see a restaurant's menu, in-flight announcements, traffic advisories, etc. The pandemic opened the door to making a piece of technology a mandatory requirement to participate in society. It used to be possible to live without a smartphone, now you really need to be able to read and produce QR codes¹. Why couldn't the same thing happen with AR, considering how expensive it is for governments and companies to put displays and audio announcements everywhere? ¹: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/04/my-life-without-a-smartphone-is-getting-harder-and-harder https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/04/my-lif...

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Around here (Ontario) places that insisted on QR code menus seems to be starting to roll it back. Probably under backlash from public (esp older people) who sees it as obnoxious. Myself I raise a stink every time; I don't like the tracking implications. If businesses insist on it, I try to take my business elsewhere.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I do art projects involving QR code, at first I was happy about this development because it was getting people to scan QR codes (no mean feat on the OS whose logo is a trash can) but I found the backlash disturbing.
throwaway22032 3y ago
I haven't scanned a QR code for years and I live in a major city. I used one QR menu during coronavirus and then started going elsewhere. To be honest restaurants during the pandemic were awful anyway, far more fun to just have friends over for dinner. I have a fairly varied social life, if anything I probably drink too much. This doesn't match up with reality to me. Unavoidable means just that - cannot be avoided. To avoid using QR codes doesn't even involve trying.
tomjen3 3y ago
You don't actually need a smartphone, which is good because a lot of older people do not have them or can't use them. I think people sometimes forget that you can inconvinience a waitress without being an asshole about it (they are there to provide service) and that being able to be a customer is important enough that most businesses would prefer staff spend time helping you. Sure they would prefer you have a smartphone, and it may be less convinient but that doesn't mean they can't work to accomondate you.

hinkley 3y ago

> I have no plan to ever buy one of these headsets. I used to be in a social circle where a couple people claimed they would rather die than ever own an ebook. I wish I had written down which people they were so I could RemindMe in ten years to see if they were enjoying the afterlife or not. When we are in the early adoption phase there are always late adopters who expect to be never adopters. But peer pressure happens, and some products actually listen to complaints and improve the product to overcome reservations. And then everything goes to hell in a hand basket.

aprinsen 3y ago
Except I never bought cryptocurrency and I don't have TikTok and you being right about eBooks has no bearing on the success or failure of personal AR
- hinkley 3y ago
  Youtube is giving you TikTok whether you want it or not. Not all fads get adopted. AR is in my opinion still a tech before its time, which makes it a fad - for now - but not necessarily forever. Cellphones and particularly smart watches are a form of ambient technology that have caught on, and I think it's only a matter of process shrinkage and battery tech before it happens. Say another 7-10 years for battery density to double again. Early ebooks were objectively as bad as current or last generation VR equipment. Nobody was going to adopt that. It's a matter of connecting the dots. If you don't like the idea of everyone in AR, that's fine. Then I recommend you start now to participate in environmental and conservation special interest groups, because there is a day coming when philosophers, ascetics, and people who touch trees on purpose are the main demographics of people who actively reject augmentation for augmentation's sake. There are loud opinions in each of those groups, and they have merit. And frankly we could use a few more science-minded tree huggers to dilute the conspiracy theorists.