3 ms·

Interesting. I just finished reading Ulysses with a group of friends, and I thought it was a work of absolute fucking genius. One of the best things I've ever

by mkehrt 3y ago

Interesting. I just finished reading Ulysses with a group of friends, and I thought it was a work of absolute fucking genius. One of the best things I've ever read--possibly the best thing I've ever read--hands down. It's not just stream of consciousness; it's the way each chapter is structured differently, has different themes and different form. The stream of consciousness comes and goes--some sections are easy, and some are incomprehensible. One chapter is a play; one chapter is a series of pastiches of different English styles throughout the past millennium; one chapter is an absurdly over-erudite lecture on Shakespeare; one chapter is an orgasm. I learned a lot about Irish history. The language is absolutely exquisite with endless onomatopoeia. I kept switch back and forth between listening to and reading it, or doing both simultaneously. It was incredibly hard to get through and absolutely amazing.

AlbertCory 3y ago
Yeah, I've heard all that. Also struggled through the part where he says the same thing in 14 different styles (if that's the number). Impressive and I'm sure it was difficult as hell to write, but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please.
- viscanti 3y ago
  > but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please. Certainly there are some chapters/styles where he's playing for the critics. But I thought it did a brilliant job of creating a modernist hero (e.g Bloom snuggling his wife's butt and her farting in his face). For me, the most impactful part was showing Bloom from so many different perspectives. Seeing him in less heroic settings (like what he does on the beach) or from his wife's perspective gives him depth you rarely see in literature. It's ultimately a story about nothing, so if you're not into a hyper-stylized prose based exploration of Bloom, then it won't be for you. I think the challenging aspects can work to force a reader to think more critically about some parts (just so they can make it through and understand what they're reading) and connect with things in a way most books won't ever engage a reader. Lots of readers do find some deeper understanding of the human condition, but it won't be for everyone, especially someone who cares more for a plot than an experiment in narrative structure exploring a flawed modernist hero.
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    OK, good answer, thanks. For me, I don't think characters have to be "likable" or even "hate-able" but I do like to find them interesting. I found I wasn't interested in any of the three main characters.
    - viscanti 3y ago
      Yeah, it sounds like you prefer plot or character development. I don't know that Bloom is supposed to be super interesting (not much interesting happens because it's a relatively mundane regular day). My take was that it was more of a philosophical exploration of an everyman and what makes him tick, with a lot of experimental prose styles. Some of the novelty has faded over the years as it's pretty common to see flawed characters (we had a whole modernist and then post-modernist movement after - and arguably highly influenced by - Ulysses). The things that would have shocked readers when the book came out would no longer shock readers today, but for some, the psychological exploration of Bloom and his relationships still holds up.
      - AlbertCory 3y ago
        > it sounds like you prefer plot or character development hmm. I don't know if I'd call Anna a plot or character novel, but certainly the characters do exemplify moral and/or religious themes, against the backdrop of Russian society. And there certainly IS a plot :) A writer I particularly admire is Dickens, who could give you two pages on some minor character and make him or her absolutely unforgettable. Although I can't name one, but maybe not so unforgettable /s
c_crank 3y ago
What's the benefit of writing any story in this format, instead of just making a story that is just a really good Shakespearean play, or a really good pastiche of some era, or...?
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  > What's the benefit of writing any story... My point exactly. It was difficult, it was an impressive feat, it was ground-breaking, but in the end what do you get out of reading it?

by mkehrt 3y ago

AlbertCory 3y ago

Yeah, I've heard all that. Also struggled through the part where he says the same thing in 14 different styles (if that's the number). Impressive and I'm sure it was difficult as hell to write, but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please.

viscanti 3y ago
> but what do you, the reader, get out of it? Some deeper understanding of the human condition? Please. Certainly there are some chapters/styles where he's playing for the critics. But I thought it did a brilliant job of creating a modernist hero (e.g Bloom snuggling his wife's butt and her farting in his face). For me, the most impactful part was showing Bloom from so many different perspectives. Seeing him in less heroic settings (like what he does on the beach) or from his wife's perspective gives him depth you rarely see in literature. It's ultimately a story about nothing, so if you're not into a hyper-stylized prose based exploration of Bloom, then it won't be for you. I think the challenging aspects can work to force a reader to think more critically about some parts (just so they can make it through and understand what they're reading) and connect with things in a way most books won't ever engage a reader. Lots of readers do find some deeper understanding of the human condition, but it won't be for everyone, especially someone who cares more for a plot than an experiment in narrative structure exploring a flawed modernist hero.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  OK, good answer, thanks. For me, I don't think characters have to be "likable" or even "hate-able" but I do like to find them interesting. I found I wasn't interested in any of the three main characters.
  - viscanti 3y ago
    Yeah, it sounds like you prefer plot or character development. I don't know that Bloom is supposed to be super interesting (not much interesting happens because it's a relatively mundane regular day). My take was that it was more of a philosophical exploration of an everyman and what makes him tick, with a lot of experimental prose styles. Some of the novelty has faded over the years as it's pretty common to see flawed characters (we had a whole modernist and then post-modernist movement after - and arguably highly influenced by - Ulysses). The things that would have shocked readers when the book came out would no longer shock readers today, but for some, the psychological exploration of Bloom and his relationships still holds up.
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      > it sounds like you prefer plot or character development hmm. I don't know if I'd call Anna a plot or character novel, but certainly the characters do exemplify moral and/or religious themes, against the backdrop of Russian society. And there certainly IS a plot :) A writer I particularly admire is Dickens, who could give you two pages on some minor character and make him or her absolutely unforgettable. Although I can't name one, but maybe not so unforgettable /s

c_crank 3y ago

What's the benefit of writing any story in this format, instead of just making a story that is just a really good Shakespearean play, or a really good pastiche of some era, or...?

AlbertCory 3y ago
> What's the benefit of writing any story... My point exactly. It was difficult, it was an impressive feat, it was ground-breaking, but in the end what do you get out of reading it?