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> How would you alternatively design a system that calls emergency services in a crash? I'd put it in the car. Make it use the same sensor as airbag deploymen

> How would you alternatively design a system that calls emergency services in a crash? I'd put it in the car. Make it use the same sensor as airbag deployment.

noodlesUK 3y ago
I think that's probably the best way to do something like this, but it certainly won't have the reach of putting the feature in people's phones. Only newer cars with the feature would be able to make the call. I think it would make sense to require some feature like this as part of the standard safety equipment on a new car. I'm pretty sure that this iPhone feature has and will save lives, and it may also risk them due to resource mismanagement.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > ... but it certainly won't have the reach of putting the feature in people's phones. I think this may be another job for Bayes. Apple's algorithm may be very accurate at detecting car crashes when there are car crashes, but most of the time there are not car crashes. As a result it may actually be super inaccurate at the 'population' level. So while it may have the reach, the incidence of false positives and the infrastructure misallocation may yield worse outcomes than not having the system in the first place.
  - noodlesUK 3y ago
    > I think this may be another job for Bayes. Definitely. I think it is difficult to assess the scale of the issue here without any raw numbers. In terms of resource allocation, this quote in the article seems to suggest that they weren't so stretched thin that they had any issues. >Our employees really stepped up, as first responders always do really step up in the line of duty and they did. And we didn’t have any situation where we couldn’t help someone because of the amount of calls.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Yeah at some point Apple will have to make the calculation actual lives saved vs. useless dispatches of emergency services A good individual idea not always turns out to be great when taken at a population level
    - alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago
      Is apple paying for the false alarms? I assume they aren't (They aren't in the saving lives bussiness) I suppose they have no motive for this: "Apple will have to make the calculation actual lives saved vs. useless dispatches"
- bombolo 3y ago
  Do you think most car owners in the world have a functioning new iphone with them at all times while in the car?
- mcast 3y ago
  Not to mention, car manufacturers would try to gate this feature behind a paid subscription model like OnStar. The industry took far too long to require rearview backup cameras, it would take years to require companies to have a system connected to a cellular network to phone 911. The personal phone is the best place to fit this feature because it already has cellular communications and can work in any mode of transportation.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  > Only newer cars with the feature would be able to make the call. Make a USB cigarette lighter charger which also has crash sensors that the phone can use. (and/or put them in dashcams) (or aftermarket stereo/infotainment systems)
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  In Europe none of this is needed. Cars made after April 2018 have eCall built in. No need for an iPhone to do things it's not supposed to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall And many modern cars have it as well in the USA. My BMW has it.
babyshake 3y ago
You can keep it in the phone, but use phone GPS to detect that a crash-like event correlates to something that looks like a crash from recent GPS data. That should reduce the false positives.
- mh- 3y ago
  Phones don't keep a GPS fix in the background 24/7. This would be prohibitively expensive, battery-wise. iPhones do have approximate location available at all times, via wi-fi scanning/databases and tower ~triangulation. This wouldn't be good enough to infer any sort of acute acceleration/deceleration. All of that said, none of it helps if you were sitting at a red light for 3 minutes before being rear-ended.
cauthon 3y ago
The automatic detection and activation of "driving focus" in iOS has been extremely accurate in my experience. Seems like it'd be easiest to simply filter out "car crashes" when the phone isn't associated with a "driving" state.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  On the other hand my iOS phone has never activated driving focus even when I'm driving. I suspect that's because I never connected my phone to the car over Bluetooth.
  - hermitdev 3y ago
    FWIW, my wife's iphone turns on driving mode while a passenger in my car, even though her phone is not paired to my car at all.
  - cauthon 3y ago
    I don't have bluetooth in my car. Going over about 10-15 mph seems to trigger it.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    There’s a setting to switch between speed or connection to a car as criteria.
taeric 3y ago
And then it would be worthless for hikers, bikers, elderly.... This is, all told, a fairly useful feature that has historically been accomplished only with dedicated hardware. Such that I'm surprised at all of the indignation here. I remember when the watch came out, that there were many stories on how it had helped folks. Seems a straight line from those to false positives. There are probably also false negatives, such that the feature has work to do in both directions.
- TremendousJudge 3y ago
  That's moving the goalposts? If the feature is for "car crashes" it's reasonable to put it int he car. A generic "this person had some sort of accident" is a much broader specification and much harder to manage all the edge cases for.
  - taeric 3y ago
    It is crash detection. It has saved some biker's lives.
    - TremendousJudge 3y ago
      I'm not saying it's not valuable, I'm saying that without building a more specialized system you will never be able to filter a good chunk of false positives. And it's not great to have false calls on the emergency system, since it makes it worse for everyone.
- virtue3 3y ago
  You are massively underestimating the strain and resources expended for false positives for emergency services. This will be a major issue for municipalities. And it won't be apple footing the bill it will be your local tax dollars at work. Put another way; if an emergency team arrives late to another accident because they were tied up on a false positive from an iphone and that results in less effective care, what happens? Do we just front the bill for more emergency workers? Do we hold apple accountable for false positives? Do we hold the user accountable for false positives (I guarantee most people are gonna start turning it off then). Seems like emergency response centers are a little mixed in how they feel about the feature. But this last point is especially important as to why false positives are pretty irresponsible. "An automated call from Crash Detection could cost responders as much as $10,000, and they have a limited budget." https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/09/apple-crash-detection-now-causing-problems-in-minnesota https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/09/apple-crash-detec...
aksss 3y ago
My 2012 F150 behaves this way (supposedly) - the truck will try to call 911 using your BT-connected phone in the event of a crash. I’ve assumed that’s how GM cars with Onstar worked too, using their built in cell connection.

> How would you alternatively design a system that calls emergency services in a crash? I'd put it in the car. Make it use the same sensor as airbag deployment.

noodlesUK 3y ago

I think that's probably the best way to do something like this, but it certainly won't have the reach of putting the feature in people's phones. Only newer cars with the feature would be able to make the call. I think it would make sense to require some feature like this as part of the standard safety equipment on a new car. I'm pretty sure that this iPhone feature has and will save lives, and it may also risk them due to resource mismanagement.

arcticbull 3y ago
> ... but it certainly won't have the reach of putting the feature in people's phones. I think this may be another job for Bayes. Apple's algorithm may be very accurate at detecting car crashes when there are car crashes, but most of the time there are not car crashes. As a result it may actually be super inaccurate at the 'population' level. So while it may have the reach, the incidence of false positives and the infrastructure misallocation may yield worse outcomes than not having the system in the first place.
- noodlesUK 3y ago
  > I think this may be another job for Bayes. Definitely. I think it is difficult to assess the scale of the issue here without any raw numbers. In terms of resource allocation, this quote in the article seems to suggest that they weren't so stretched thin that they had any issues. >Our employees really stepped up, as first responders always do really step up in the line of duty and they did. And we didn’t have any situation where we couldn’t help someone because of the amount of calls.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Yeah at some point Apple will have to make the calculation actual lives saved vs. useless dispatches of emergency services A good individual idea not always turns out to be great when taken at a population level
  - alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago
    Is apple paying for the false alarms? I assume they aren't (They aren't in the saving lives bussiness) I suppose they have no motive for this: "Apple will have to make the calculation actual lives saved vs. useless dispatches"
bombolo 3y ago
Do you think most car owners in the world have a functioning new iphone with them at all times while in the car?
mcast 3y ago
Not to mention, car manufacturers would try to gate this feature behind a paid subscription model like OnStar. The industry took far too long to require rearview backup cameras, it would take years to require companies to have a system connected to a cellular network to phone 911. The personal phone is the best place to fit this feature because it already has cellular communications and can work in any mode of transportation.
lamontcg 3y ago
> Only newer cars with the feature would be able to make the call. Make a USB cigarette lighter charger which also has crash sensors that the phone can use. (and/or put them in dashcams) (or aftermarket stereo/infotainment systems)
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
In Europe none of this is needed. Cars made after April 2018 have eCall built in. No need for an iPhone to do things it's not supposed to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall And many modern cars have it as well in the USA. My BMW has it.

babyshake 3y ago

You can keep it in the phone, but use phone GPS to detect that a crash-like event correlates to something that looks like a crash from recent GPS data. That should reduce the false positives.

mh- 3y ago
Phones don't keep a GPS fix in the background 24/7. This would be prohibitively expensive, battery-wise. iPhones do have approximate location available at all times, via wi-fi scanning/databases and tower ~triangulation. This wouldn't be good enough to infer any sort of acute acceleration/deceleration. All of that said, none of it helps if you were sitting at a red light for 3 minutes before being rear-ended.

cauthon 3y ago

The automatic detection and activation of "driving focus" in iOS has been extremely accurate in my experience. Seems like it'd be easiest to simply filter out "car crashes" when the phone isn't associated with a "driving" state.

kccqzy 3y ago
On the other hand my iOS phone has never activated driving focus even when I'm driving. I suspect that's because I never connected my phone to the car over Bluetooth.
- hermitdev 3y ago
  FWIW, my wife's iphone turns on driving mode while a passenger in my car, even though her phone is not paired to my car at all.
- cauthon 3y ago
  I don't have bluetooth in my car. Going over about 10-15 mph seems to trigger it.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  There’s a setting to switch between speed or connection to a car as criteria.

taeric 3y ago

And then it would be worthless for hikers, bikers, elderly.... This is, all told, a fairly useful feature that has historically been accomplished only with dedicated hardware. Such that I'm surprised at all of the indignation here. I remember when the watch came out, that there were many stories on how it had helped folks. Seems a straight line from those to false positives. There are probably also false negatives, such that the feature has work to do in both directions.

TremendousJudge 3y ago
That's moving the goalposts? If the feature is for "car crashes" it's reasonable to put it int he car. A generic "this person had some sort of accident" is a much broader specification and much harder to manage all the edge cases for.
- taeric 3y ago
  It is crash detection. It has saved some biker's lives.
  - TremendousJudge 3y ago
    I'm not saying it's not valuable, I'm saying that without building a more specialized system you will never be able to filter a good chunk of false positives. And it's not great to have false calls on the emergency system, since it makes it worse for everyone.
virtue3 3y ago
You are massively underestimating the strain and resources expended for false positives for emergency services. This will be a major issue for municipalities. And it won't be apple footing the bill it will be your local tax dollars at work. Put another way; if an emergency team arrives late to another accident because they were tied up on a false positive from an iphone and that results in less effective care, what happens? Do we just front the bill for more emergency workers? Do we hold apple accountable for false positives? Do we hold the user accountable for false positives (I guarantee most people are gonna start turning it off then). Seems like emergency response centers are a little mixed in how they feel about the feature. But this last point is especially important as to why false positives are pretty irresponsible. "An automated call from Crash Detection could cost responders as much as $10,000, and they have a limited budget." https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/09/apple-crash-detection-now-causing-problems-in-minnesota https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/09/apple-crash-detec...

aksss 3y ago

My 2012 F150 behaves this way (supposedly) - the truck will try to call 911 using your BT-connected phone in the event of a crash. I’ve assumed that’s how GM cars with Onstar worked too, using their built in cell connection.