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The EDF is actually 65 billion in debt and the government started the process of its nationalization to make it 100% state owned last year. If various internet

The EDF is actually 65 billion in debt and the government started the process of its nationalization to make it 100% state owned last year. If various internet source are to be believed, France has a price of 22c per kWh for consumers. I checked the current averages in Germany and the price of electricity alone is around 25 kWh (and then taxes and distribution surcharges and various other costs go on top), despite the fact that wholesale prices in Germany have been drastically below that of France for at least a year now. How is this possible? It can only be that french prices are artificially low because the EDF is state owned. But back to my original statement - the real price will be paid one way or another, there is no free lunch. The additional irony of that is that prices in Germany and other European countries shot up last year because of electricity deficit partially caused by France's nuclear plants going belly up. Our consumption is a lot lower than that, we are almost always around 1500kWh per year, this was the case even as a household of 3. I sort of work remote, I have a shared office with 5 other people, and we spend less than 100kWh per month (we checked a few times since we moved in). So if you want you might add around 300-400kWh per year if two people were working remotely, but then again we would not have two fridges at home, and we already frequently work from home.

pyrale 3y ago
> The EDF is actually 65 billion in debt That's irrelevant to electricity prices. Amazon made huge losses early in its history, but their unit costs were sound (ie they made money for every item they sold). Likewise, EDF makes money for every kWh they sell. Their debt is unrelated to their activity as an electricity producer. > France has a price of 22c per kWh for consumers. It's more like 20.5cts right now. A decade ago, it was 13cts [1], and EDF was profitable [2]. > despite the fact that wholesale prices in Germany have been drastically below that of France for at least a year now. EDF doesn't usually need to buy power on markets. They produce what they sell. This year, exceptionally, they needed to buy for two reasons: 1) some of their reactors were down, which hurt a bit. 2) the French government forced EDF to buy an extra 20 TWh on the markets at the worst moment (market price > 200€/MWh), and sell back this power to its competitors at 46€/MWh [3]. Do you understand how some losses showed up now? > The additional irony of that is that prices in Germany and other European countries shot up last year because of electricity deficit partially caused by France's nuclear plants going belly up. Yeah, well, you could also say that the prices were low for the last 20 years because France consistently exported power when its neighbours needed it. Or that Germany's (and other European countries') reliance on gas for power generation contributed heavily to European electricity markets' exposure to Russian gas squeeze. I guess the narrative you subscribe to depends on what you want to believe. > Our consumption is a lot lower than that, we are almost always around 1500kWh per year 4 kWh per day is pretty rad when it comes to optimizing power. Kudos for your efforts! I assume you have extremely recent appliances, considering an old fridge would be almost 1/4th of it. Would you have a breakdown of your electric uses and material age? [1]: https://prix-elec.com/tarifs/evolution/2013 https://prix-elec.com/tarifs/evolution/2013 [2]: https://www.edf.fr/sites/default/files/uploads/2013edfgroupresultats_transcript_vf_v2_0.pdf https://www.edf.fr/sites/default/files/uploads/2013edfgroupr... [3]: https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/edf-will-sell-extra-20-twh-nuclear-power-french-competitors-2022.html https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/edf-...
- locallost 3y ago
  It's relevant because they are making less than what they spend. Amazon did not run its business on 40 year old power plants that were designed to run for just over 30 [1]. All things break down eventually, write-offs exist in business for a reason. The replacement was supposed to be Flamanville 3, but it turned into an embarrassment. How much will it cost to replace 50+ reactors? Do the math. The EDF is not Amazon, it's more like an Uber driver that runs a "profitable" business, that is suddenly out of work because it needs a new car. Cars break down after 200k? Who knew. "Some" reactors were not down. Half of the fleet was down, and half of that entirely unplanned. Maybe they made a 20 billion hole because they couldn't fix the problem for months and had to fly in welders from the US? [2] ARENH exists for a decade now, and whether it's the right thing or not is for the sake of this discussion entirely irrelevant (I really don't have an opinion, you can argue either way). What's relevant is that it exists, and if you run a business you can't say "well, we only made a loss because of reality". If you are sane, you include that risk into the price and insure yourself of the risk. Once those 100TWh per year caps started getting maxed out a couple years ago it should've been a clear signal they will be in deep shit if something bad eventually happens. And their electricity output has been going down every year for years now to boot. > Yeah, well, you could also say that the prices were low for the last 20 years because France consistently exported power when its neighbours needed it. Or that Germany's (and other European countries') reliance on gas for power generation contributed heavily to European electricity markets' exposure to Russian gas squeeze. I guess the narrative you subscribe to depends on what you want to believe. Both of those things can be true, my point was that if you are creating a hole of 1-2 billion per month, you at some point need to plug the hole. Especially if what you're selling you don't have enough. Law of supply and demand? My electricity provider didn't jack up prices the moment the prices started going up, but eventually when it became clear they need to, they did. Same thing for my heating. Otherwise they would be bankrupt because they are not too big to fail. But this was a signal to consumers to be more conscious about how they spend electricity or energy in general. As for my appliances, the only new one we have is a washing machine. The fridge we inherited from the previous tenants, so I don't really know, but 400kWh is quite a lot for a fridge these days. Even something like 250 would get a very low rating. I was thinking about a new one and you can even find some larger ones at 50kWh per year. It really doesn't take much of an effort. I guess the only thing "modern" households usually do that we don't is tumble drying, but every time I do do it, I mess some clothes up, so I don't like it anyway. I only use my laptop since a couple years, but more for convenience than for saving electricity by avoiding desktop machines. [1] https://www.ina.fr/ina-eclaire-actu/president-edf-risque-fissure-centrales-nucleaires-marcel-boiteux https://www.ina.fr/ina-eclaire-actu/president-edf-risque-fis... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/welders-wanted-france-steps-up-recruitment-drive-nuclear-crisis-deepens-2022-11-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/welders-wanted-franc...

pyrale 3y ago

> The EDF is actually 65 billion in debt That's irrelevant to electricity prices. Amazon made huge losses early in its history, but their unit costs were sound (ie they made money for every item they sold). Likewise, EDF makes money for every kWh they sell. Their debt is unrelated to their activity as an electricity producer. > France has a price of 22c per kWh for consumers. It's more like 20.5cts right now. A decade ago, it was 13cts [1], and EDF was profitable [2]. > despite the fact that wholesale prices in Germany have been drastically below that of France for at least a year now. EDF doesn't usually need to buy power on markets. They produce what they sell. This year, exceptionally, they needed to buy for two reasons: 1) some of their reactors were down, which hurt a bit. 2) the French government forced EDF to buy an extra 20 TWh on the markets at the worst moment (market price > 200€/MWh), and sell back this power to its competitors at 46€/MWh [3]. Do you understand how some losses showed up now? > The additional irony of that is that prices in Germany and other European countries shot up last year because of electricity deficit partially caused by France's nuclear plants going belly up. Yeah, well, you could also say that the prices were low for the last 20 years because France consistently exported power when its neighbours needed it. Or that Germany's (and other European countries') reliance on gas for power generation contributed heavily to European electricity markets' exposure to Russian gas squeeze. I guess the narrative you subscribe to depends on what you want to believe. > Our consumption is a lot lower than that, we are almost always around 1500kWh per year 4 kWh per day is pretty rad when it comes to optimizing power. Kudos for your efforts! I assume you have extremely recent appliances, considering an old fridge would be almost 1/4th of it. Would you have a breakdown of your electric uses and material age? [1]: https://prix-elec.com/tarifs/evolution/2013 https://prix-elec.com/tarifs/evolution/2013 [2]: https://www.edf.fr/sites/default/files/uploads/2013edfgroupresultats_transcript_vf_v2_0.pdf https://www.edf.fr/sites/default/files/uploads/2013edfgroupr... [3]: https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/edf-will-sell-extra-20-twh-nuclear-power-french-competitors-2022.html https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/edf-...

locallost 3y ago
It's relevant because they are making less than what they spend. Amazon did not run its business on 40 year old power plants that were designed to run for just over 30 [1]. All things break down eventually, write-offs exist in business for a reason. The replacement was supposed to be Flamanville 3, but it turned into an embarrassment. How much will it cost to replace 50+ reactors? Do the math. The EDF is not Amazon, it's more like an Uber driver that runs a "profitable" business, that is suddenly out of work because it needs a new car. Cars break down after 200k? Who knew. "Some" reactors were not down. Half of the fleet was down, and half of that entirely unplanned. Maybe they made a 20 billion hole because they couldn't fix the problem for months and had to fly in welders from the US? [2] ARENH exists for a decade now, and whether it's the right thing or not is for the sake of this discussion entirely irrelevant (I really don't have an opinion, you can argue either way). What's relevant is that it exists, and if you run a business you can't say "well, we only made a loss because of reality". If you are sane, you include that risk into the price and insure yourself of the risk. Once those 100TWh per year caps started getting maxed out a couple years ago it should've been a clear signal they will be in deep shit if something bad eventually happens. And their electricity output has been going down every year for years now to boot. > Yeah, well, you could also say that the prices were low for the last 20 years because France consistently exported power when its neighbours needed it. Or that Germany's (and other European countries') reliance on gas for power generation contributed heavily to European electricity markets' exposure to Russian gas squeeze. I guess the narrative you subscribe to depends on what you want to believe. Both of those things can be true, my point was that if you are creating a hole of 1-2 billion per month, you at some point need to plug the hole. Especially if what you're selling you don't have enough. Law of supply and demand? My electricity provider didn't jack up prices the moment the prices started going up, but eventually when it became clear they need to, they did. Same thing for my heating. Otherwise they would be bankrupt because they are not too big to fail. But this was a signal to consumers to be more conscious about how they spend electricity or energy in general. As for my appliances, the only new one we have is a washing machine. The fridge we inherited from the previous tenants, so I don't really know, but 400kWh is quite a lot for a fridge these days. Even something like 250 would get a very low rating. I was thinking about a new one and you can even find some larger ones at 50kWh per year. It really doesn't take much of an effort. I guess the only thing "modern" households usually do that we don't is tumble drying, but every time I do do it, I mess some clothes up, so I don't like it anyway. I only use my laptop since a couple years, but more for convenience than for saving electricity by avoiding desktop machines. [1] https://www.ina.fr/ina-eclaire-actu/president-edf-risque-fissure-centrales-nucleaires-marcel-boiteux https://www.ina.fr/ina-eclaire-actu/president-edf-risque-fis... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/welders-wanted-france-steps-up-recruitment-drive-nuclear-crisis-deepens-2022-11-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/welders-wanted-franc...