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>> In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. Sometimes it's

>> In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. Sometimes it's good to talk about serious things with someone not directly involved with your life (i.e. no skin in the game). People even pay for this as a service, I think it's called... um... therapy. A friend of mine "admitted" to seeing a "talky doctor" because "there aren't any insightful bar tenders any more". This in the US.

pindab0ter 3y ago
Oh, definitely. I recently went to Japan and while I enjoyed the culture immensely, I can't help but notice a lot of people really aching for actual conversation. Something the Dutch generally aren't starved of with their direct and open (sometimes maybe blunt) attitude.
- kurthr 3y ago
  This is especially true in business situations. Although there is a very collective decision making process, it can be quite hierarchical. Often, if a manager has stated a position others will not disagree even if it is quite wrong. This is where drinking together comes in... I've seen an engineer who had sat through a day of meetings on a topic holding his tongue until they went out for drinks after work (like most days). The moment beer touched his lips he broke into an angry tirade as to how terrible the decision was, and because we were "drinking" it was not considered out of bounds or reasonably punishable insubordination. Of course sexual harassment can have similar in/out of bounds elements so it's not like strict rules, boundaries, and exceptions solve all problems.
  - saghm 3y ago
    It's kind of jarring to me that this sort of thing could be anything more than an outlier. Do companies like this not have anyone who's an alcoholic, pregnant, not fond of bars, etc., or are they just fine with cutting them out of the actual decision making process?
    - xp84 3y ago
      My favorite boss ever would sit and drink with me and a few of my peers after work regularly. Some others wouldn’t join us, for their own reasons. He made sure to spend more time listening to their opinions in the office though, and he had their complete trust. Now, we may not have heard quite as unfiltered commentary from those folks since they didn’t choose to drink, but that’s by their choice. It’s better to have some honesty from half your subordinates than none. I don’t mean this at all as an inflammatory hot take, but drinking with people builds bonds in a very effective way which is very hard to match inside the office environment. I acknowledge though that there are obviously big problems with drinking as well and not everyone should do it.
      - saghm 3y ago
        I'm going to preface this by saying that I also don't mean any of this as inflammatory or a personal attack, and I fully believe that you had nothing but good intentions, but it doesn't really seem like you've fully viewed most of what you've said from the perspective of someone who doesn't drink at all. The claim that people wouldn't feel excluded and disfavored for not attending but frequent social bonding over drinks because its optional is impossible for you to objectively evaluate. Of course you weren't aware of anyone having anything less than "complete trust" in your boss because of it; why would someone who felt that your boss was favoring those who drank with him tell you? People who perceive they're not part of a special social clique aren't going to go complain to the exact people who are then ones making them feel that way. It's not impossible that you're correct, but it's hard for me to imagine that someone would feel comfortable sharing negative feelings about the boss with you when you seem so confident that no one could possibly have any issues with the arrangement; if I were in that situation, I can't see myself even considering trusting how I really felt about it about it with a coworker who couldn't seem to even conceive of those feelings on their own.
        xp84 3y ago
        Thanks for your reply. I can see how I could have been in the dark about someone's true feelings if they weren't in a "clique" that I was in. In my exact case though, I felt like the 'clique' wasn't just the people who liked drinking at the bar, because we also had lunches including those non-drinkers, zoom happy hours (2020!), etc. I mean, drinking alcohol itself is optional even at a bar. You're right that decision-making shouldn't be done by a committee delineated as "just the people who drink together" -- and that could be a real risk if this type of thing isn't being carefully considered. However, the only guarantee against it than I can think of would be the far worse policy to simply ban all socializing after work, because the same thing could happen if 4 people took up after-work hacky sack and the others weren't interested.
weatherlight 3y ago
I'm very happy as a software engineer, but if I could do any job in the world where money wasn't a consideration, I'd go back to bartending. I worked a the closing shift at a very popular bar in the West village, NYC around 2007-2009. I had my regulars, the work was simple. I'd get to know them and learn about their lives. I made a bunch of friends. People I would have never met otherwise, because of social strata or just having completely different lives that wouldn't intersect otherwise. I'm not a huge fan of smalltalk strangers, the kind that you might have with a stranger on the subway or someone at the dog park. But for whatever the reason, those weren't the kinds of conversations that were occurring late nights at the bar :)
- GFischer 3y ago
  I heard of someone well off being a part-time Uber driver in SF because he got to interact with interesting people...

pindab0ter 3y ago

Oh, definitely. I recently went to Japan and while I enjoyed the culture immensely, I can't help but notice a lot of people really aching for actual conversation. Something the Dutch generally aren't starved of with their direct and open (sometimes maybe blunt) attitude.

kurthr 3y ago
This is especially true in business situations. Although there is a very collective decision making process, it can be quite hierarchical. Often, if a manager has stated a position others will not disagree even if it is quite wrong. This is where drinking together comes in... I've seen an engineer who had sat through a day of meetings on a topic holding his tongue until they went out for drinks after work (like most days). The moment beer touched his lips he broke into an angry tirade as to how terrible the decision was, and because we were "drinking" it was not considered out of bounds or reasonably punishable insubordination. Of course sexual harassment can have similar in/out of bounds elements so it's not like strict rules, boundaries, and exceptions solve all problems.
- saghm 3y ago
  It's kind of jarring to me that this sort of thing could be anything more than an outlier. Do companies like this not have anyone who's an alcoholic, pregnant, not fond of bars, etc., or are they just fine with cutting them out of the actual decision making process?
  - xp84 3y ago
    My favorite boss ever would sit and drink with me and a few of my peers after work regularly. Some others wouldn’t join us, for their own reasons. He made sure to spend more time listening to their opinions in the office though, and he had their complete trust. Now, we may not have heard quite as unfiltered commentary from those folks since they didn’t choose to drink, but that’s by their choice. It’s better to have some honesty from half your subordinates than none. I don’t mean this at all as an inflammatory hot take, but drinking with people builds bonds in a very effective way which is very hard to match inside the office environment. I acknowledge though that there are obviously big problems with drinking as well and not everyone should do it.
    - saghm 3y ago
      I'm going to preface this by saying that I also don't mean any of this as inflammatory or a personal attack, and I fully believe that you had nothing but good intentions, but it doesn't really seem like you've fully viewed most of what you've said from the perspective of someone who doesn't drink at all. The claim that people wouldn't feel excluded and disfavored for not attending but frequent social bonding over drinks because its optional is impossible for you to objectively evaluate. Of course you weren't aware of anyone having anything less than "complete trust" in your boss because of it; why would someone who felt that your boss was favoring those who drank with him tell you? People who perceive they're not part of a special social clique aren't going to go complain to the exact people who are then ones making them feel that way. It's not impossible that you're correct, but it's hard for me to imagine that someone would feel comfortable sharing negative feelings about the boss with you when you seem so confident that no one could possibly have any issues with the arrangement; if I were in that situation, I can't see myself even considering trusting how I really felt about it about it with a coworker who couldn't seem to even conceive of those feelings on their own.
      - xp84 3y ago
        Thanks for your reply. I can see how I could have been in the dark about someone's true feelings if they weren't in a "clique" that I was in. In my exact case though, I felt like the 'clique' wasn't just the people who liked drinking at the bar, because we also had lunches including those non-drinkers, zoom happy hours (2020!), etc. I mean, drinking alcohol itself is optional even at a bar. You're right that decision-making shouldn't be done by a committee delineated as "just the people who drink together" -- and that could be a real risk if this type of thing isn't being carefully considered. However, the only guarantee against it than I can think of would be the far worse policy to simply ban all socializing after work, because the same thing could happen if 4 people took up after-work hacky sack and the others weren't interested.

weatherlight 3y ago

I'm very happy as a software engineer, but if I could do any job in the world where money wasn't a consideration, I'd go back to bartending. I worked a the closing shift at a very popular bar in the West village, NYC around 2007-2009. I had my regulars, the work was simple. I'd get to know them and learn about their lives. I made a bunch of friends. People I would have never met otherwise, because of social strata or just having completely different lives that wouldn't intersect otherwise. I'm not a huge fan of smalltalk strangers, the kind that you might have with a stranger on the subway or someone at the dog park. But for whatever the reason, those weren't the kinds of conversations that were occurring late nights at the bar :)

GFischer 3y ago
I heard of someone well off being a part-time Uber driver in SF because he got to interact with interesting people...