15 ms·

The problem is when stuff like this happens, it is hard to say how many individuals died or have been negatively affected due to resources having issues getting

by avgDev 3y ago

The problem is when stuff like this happens, it is hard to say how many individuals died or have been negatively affected due to resources having issues getting to the right individuals. If dancing can make an iphone call 911, then Apple has not done their job. You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. This is pathetic and unacceptable.

crubier 3y ago
> You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash You absolutely can, remember, the phone is recording the accelerations of the phone, not the acceleration of your brain or car or anything heavy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
appletrotter 3y ago
> You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. did you just make up that fact? https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force/ https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force...
- Swizec 3y ago
  “pilot g-force” is nothing compared to a crash. Pilots get up 9G sustained because that’s when people start passing out. A 30mph car crash into a solid obstacle spikes at 30G https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g-force/ https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g... Race car drivers have walked away from g-force as high as 78G https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappens-51g-to-ralf-schumachers-78g-biggest-ever-f1-crashes-in-terms-of-g-force/ https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappe... We’re talking an order of magnitude here. Algorithms should be able to tell the difference.
  - jstanley 3y ago
    It's worth noting that a phone bouncing around in a pocket can experience substantially more acceleration than the person carrying it.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      how much more? are we sure it's enough to excuse the failed crash detection described in the article (IE do we know the bouncing around generates multiple tens of Gs like an accident)? without such a confirmation, the error is still inexcused with it, the error seems like the feature is just poorly implemented or perhaps even poorly thought out
    - yifanl 3y ago
      Should this not have been accounted for when designing the feature?
      - jstanley 3y ago
        Yes, but it explains why the problem is not as easy as the g-force comparison makes it sound.
    - Swizec 3y ago
      I had one of these alerts go off once from my watch. After a really hard fall from tripping during a trail run. I still have the scars. The alert said: “You had a hard fall and stopped moving. Press this button or we call help” The “stopped moving” part seems like the perfect proxy here. People in a car crash experience a huge spike in G-force once. Then it stops. Or maybe it goes for a few seconds if you’re rolling down the highway. Car crashes don’t go on for minutes upon minutes. This seems like something a machine learning algorithm could handle. At the cost of calling 911 3min after a crash instead of 3sec. That’s still much faster than how long it takes people to call for help.
  - appletrotter 3y ago
    4.5g exceeds the threshold for a mild accident. A person, especially depending on any pre-existing conditions, can be injured with this much force. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... I believe 4.5gs would be like a 9-10mph crash.
- hu3 3y ago
  I believe you are mistaking crashing a car with driving a car. There are wildly different G-forces involved.
  - appletrotter 3y ago
    Not confused, here's a table which breaks things down a little: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... My assumption is that they want to trigger the alarm even for mild accidents. Note that the Gs experienced by the dancers in my previously shared article approach the threshold for a mild accident. I wonder how they conducted the experiment, and if a phone held in a person's hand while they are dancing might experience even more Gs than the person's body. edit: I think 4.5gs is equal to a 9-10mph crash.
- avgDev 3y ago
  4.5G is nothing. "A concussion occurs at roughly 90 to 100 g-force, which equates to smashing your skull against a wall at 20 mph" - https://news.umich.edu/football-helmet-sensors-help-researchers-demystify-concussion-in-young-athletes/ https://news.umich.edu/football-helmet-sensors-help-research... These comments are making it quite clear why stuff like this makes it to production.
  - appletrotter 3y ago
    4.5G is a mild accident. You're unlikely to sustain major injury, but it's not nothing. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... 90-100g is a pretty extreme amount of force.
taeric 3y ago
I am not claiming it isn't a problem. But consider, the roll out of cell phones was also a problem for first responders. We can and should fix it to make it better. And it isn't impossible to say how many were negatively affected, all told. It is hard in the moment, of course, but you can pull that signal out. Again, they should work to fix this. But don't ignore the benefits of the feature, as well. Edit: I also wouldn't be shocked to know that most of the dancing causing false reports were people dropping their phones. That will look a lot like a crash, for obvious reasons. Edit2: For the "difficulty determining the impact," it is worth noting that they specifically callout that they were not overwhelmed, such that there is no reason to think this caused specific issues.
kotaKat 3y ago
Crash Detection uses more than accelerometer and gyroscope input. Another major item it uses is listening for overall sound/noise from the microphones -- if it's loud, it's assuming a crash. Screaming and howling and bumping and grinding around the phone has no other clue other than "I must be in a crash". It leverages the GPS, microphone, barometer, Bluetooth, Carplay status, accelerometer, and gyroscope in a sensor fusion.
- pc86 3y ago
  Doesn't that just make it even more embarrassing that this is happening then? No Carplay connection, mostly stationary on the GPS, gyroscope and accelerometer not showing anything near the signs of a crash. But, "it's loud" so let's call 911.
  - nucleardog 3y ago
    I don't think we know what it _actually_ detected these events as. Gizmodo is reporting car crashes, but I don't think there's any way for them to know that. The actual setting for the apple watch calls it a "severe crash" and has triggered for people crashing bicycles and things. There's also a separate "fall detection" setting that will call after a hard fall if you're not moving.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  If it's going off from dancing, then all that still isn't enough to justify its existence.

by avgDev 3y ago

crubier 3y ago

> You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash You absolutely can, remember, the phone is recording the accelerations of the phone, not the acceleration of your brain or car or anything heavy.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

appletrotter 3y ago

> You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. did you just make up that fact? https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force/ https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force...

Swizec 3y ago
“pilot g-force” is nothing compared to a crash. Pilots get up 9G sustained because that’s when people start passing out. A 30mph car crash into a solid obstacle spikes at 30G https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g-force/ https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g... Race car drivers have walked away from g-force as high as 78G https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappens-51g-to-ralf-schumachers-78g-biggest-ever-f1-crashes-in-terms-of-g-force/ https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappe... We’re talking an order of magnitude here. Algorithms should be able to tell the difference.
- jstanley 3y ago
  It's worth noting that a phone bouncing around in a pocket can experience substantially more acceleration than the person carrying it.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    how much more? are we sure it's enough to excuse the failed crash detection described in the article (IE do we know the bouncing around generates multiple tens of Gs like an accident)? without such a confirmation, the error is still inexcused with it, the error seems like the feature is just poorly implemented or perhaps even poorly thought out
  - yifanl 3y ago
    Should this not have been accounted for when designing the feature?
    - jstanley 3y ago
      Yes, but it explains why the problem is not as easy as the g-force comparison makes it sound.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    I had one of these alerts go off once from my watch. After a really hard fall from tripping during a trail run. I still have the scars. The alert said: “You had a hard fall and stopped moving. Press this button or we call help” The “stopped moving” part seems like the perfect proxy here. People in a car crash experience a huge spike in G-force once. Then it stops. Or maybe it goes for a few seconds if you’re rolling down the highway. Car crashes don’t go on for minutes upon minutes. This seems like something a machine learning algorithm could handle. At the cost of calling 911 3min after a crash instead of 3sec. That’s still much faster than how long it takes people to call for help.
- appletrotter 3y ago
  4.5g exceeds the threshold for a mild accident. A person, especially depending on any pre-existing conditions, can be injured with this much force. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... I believe 4.5gs would be like a 9-10mph crash.
hu3 3y ago
I believe you are mistaking crashing a car with driving a car. There are wildly different G-forces involved.
- appletrotter 3y ago
  Not confused, here's a table which breaks things down a little: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... My assumption is that they want to trigger the alarm even for mild accidents. Note that the Gs experienced by the dancers in my previously shared article approach the threshold for a mild accident. I wonder how they conducted the experiment, and if a phone held in a person's hand while they are dancing might experience even more Gs than the person's body. edit: I think 4.5gs is equal to a 9-10mph crash.
avgDev 3y ago
4.5G is nothing. "A concussion occurs at roughly 90 to 100 g-force, which equates to smashing your skull against a wall at 20 mph" - https://news.umich.edu/football-helmet-sensors-help-researchers-demystify-concussion-in-young-athletes/ https://news.umich.edu/football-helmet-sensors-help-research... These comments are making it quite clear why stuff like this makes it to production.
- appletrotter 3y ago
  4.5G is a mild accident. You're unlikely to sustain major injury, but it's not nothing. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-Accident-Detection_tbl1_271155472 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Thresholds-g-forces-for-... 90-100g is a pretty extreme amount of force.

taeric 3y ago

I am not claiming it isn't a problem. But consider, the roll out of cell phones was also a problem for first responders. We can and should fix it to make it better. And it isn't impossible to say how many were negatively affected, all told. It is hard in the moment, of course, but you can pull that signal out. Again, they should work to fix this. But don't ignore the benefits of the feature, as well. Edit: I also wouldn't be shocked to know that most of the dancing causing false reports were people dropping their phones. That will look a lot like a crash, for obvious reasons. Edit2: For the "difficulty determining the impact," it is worth noting that they specifically callout that they were not overwhelmed, such that there is no reason to think this caused specific issues.

kotaKat 3y ago

Crash Detection uses more than accelerometer and gyroscope input. Another major item it uses is listening for overall sound/noise from the microphones -- if it's loud, it's assuming a crash. Screaming and howling and bumping and grinding around the phone has no other clue other than "I must be in a crash". It leverages the GPS, microphone, barometer, Bluetooth, Carplay status, accelerometer, and gyroscope in a sensor fusion.

pc86 3y ago
Doesn't that just make it even more embarrassing that this is happening then? No Carplay connection, mostly stationary on the GPS, gyroscope and accelerometer not showing anything near the signs of a crash. But, "it's loud" so let's call 911.
- nucleardog 3y ago
  I don't think we know what it _actually_ detected these events as. Gizmodo is reporting car crashes, but I don't think there's any way for them to know that. The actual setting for the apple watch calls it a "severe crash" and has triggered for people crashing bicycles and things. There's also a separate "fall detection" setting that will call after a hard fall if you're not moving.
stronglikedan 3y ago
If it's going off from dancing, then all that still isn't enough to justify its existence.