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I can only imagine that if I rushed a product to market that cost taxpayers thousands of dollars an interrupted emergency services, I'd be in serious trouble.

I can only imagine that if I rushed a product to market that cost taxpayers thousands of dollars an interrupted emergency services, I'd be in serious trouble. But when you are famous, they just let you do it.

vkou 3y ago
Would you? We have a piss-poor track record of holding 'job creators' accountable for direct harm to our communities, let alone two-steps removed indirect harm.
taeric 3y ago
It doesn't take a lot of searching to find this feature giving a pretty large benefit, though? That is, be careful not to strawman this such that they can't have any false positives. Do keep on them to make it ever better, of course.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- avgDev 3y ago
  The problem is when stuff like this happens, it is hard to say how many individuals died or have been negatively affected due to resources having issues getting to the right individuals. If dancing can make an iphone call 911, then Apple has not done their job. You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. This is pathetic and unacceptable.
  - crubier 3y ago
    > You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash You absolutely can, remember, the phone is recording the accelerations of the phone, not the acceleration of your brain or car or anything heavy.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - appletrotter 3y ago
    > You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. did you just make up that fact? https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force/ https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force...
    - Swizec 3y ago
      “pilot g-force” is nothing compared to a crash. Pilots get up 9G sustained because that’s when people start passing out. A 30mph car crash into a solid obstacle spikes at 30G https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g-force/ https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g... Race car drivers have walked away from g-force as high as 78G https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappens-51g-to-ralf-schumachers-78g-biggest-ever-f1-crashes-in-terms-of-g-force/ https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappe... We’re talking an order of magnitude here. Algorithms should be able to tell the difference.
      - jstanley 3y ago
        It's worth noting that a phone bouncing around in a pocket can experience substantially more acceleration than the person carrying it.
        ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        how much more? are we sure it's enough to excuse the failed crash detection described in the article (IE do we know the bouncing around generates multiple tens of Gs like an accident)? without such a confirmation, the error is still inexcused with it, the error seems like the feature is just poorly implemented or perhaps even poorly thought out
        yifanl 3y ago
        Should this not have been accounted for when designing the feature?
        3y ago
  - taeric 3y ago
    I am not claiming it isn't a problem. But consider, the roll out of cell phones was also a problem for first responders. We can and should fix it to make it better. And it isn't impossible to say how many were negatively affected, all told. It is hard in the moment, of course, but you can pull that signal out. Again, they should work to fix this. But don't ignore the benefits of the feature, as well. Edit: I also wouldn't be shocked to know that most of the dancing causing false reports were people dropping their phones. That will look a lot like a crash, for obvious reasons. Edit2: For the "difficulty determining the impact," it is worth noting that they specifically callout that they were not overwhelmed, such that there is no reason to think this caused specific issues.
  - kotaKat 3y ago
    Crash Detection uses more than accelerometer and gyroscope input. Another major item it uses is listening for overall sound/noise from the microphones -- if it's loud, it's assuming a crash. Screaming and howling and bumping and grinding around the phone has no other clue other than "I must be in a crash". It leverages the GPS, microphone, barometer, Bluetooth, Carplay status, accelerometer, and gyroscope in a sensor fusion.
    - pc86 3y ago
      Doesn't that just make it even more embarrassing that this is happening then? No Carplay connection, mostly stationary on the GPS, gyroscope and accelerometer not showing anything near the signs of a crash. But, "it's loud" so let's call 911.
      - nucleardog 3y ago
        I don't think we know what it _actually_ detected these events as. Gizmodo is reporting car crashes, but I don't think there's any way for them to know that. The actual setting for the apple watch calls it a "severe crash" and has triggered for people crashing bicycles and things. There's also a separate "fall detection" setting that will call after a hard fall if you're not moving.
    - stronglikedan 3y ago
      If it's going off from dancing, then all that still isn't enough to justify its existence.
- _Algernon_ 3y ago
  The thing is, this feature puts a negative externality on all taxpayers, while only benefiting iphone owners and Apple's profits. Apple should be held accountable for the false positive calls this causes, if for no other reason that it incentivizes them to reduce the number of false positives.
  - taeric 3y ago
    But, it doesn't? Save one person's elderly family member that took a hard fall, and it already more than paid off for them. Regardless of if they themselves have an apple device. Heck, get treatment more rapidly to anyone, and you probably saved costs all around. I'm fine investigating. And reporting on a lot of this is fine, of course. But this very story says it did not overwhelm them, such that they were getting utilized. Probably net good for training, overall. As it let them practice runbooks that may not get a lot of use.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thiht 3y ago
> I rushed a product to market Where do you see that they rushed it?

vkou 3y ago

Would you? We have a piss-poor track record of holding 'job creators' accountable for direct harm to our communities, let alone two-steps removed indirect harm.

taeric 3y ago

It doesn't take a lot of searching to find this feature giving a pretty large benefit, though? That is, be careful not to strawman this such that they can't have any false positives. Do keep on them to make it ever better, of course.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
avgDev 3y ago
The problem is when stuff like this happens, it is hard to say how many individuals died or have been negatively affected due to resources having issues getting to the right individuals. If dancing can make an iphone call 911, then Apple has not done their job. You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. This is pathetic and unacceptable.
- crubier 3y ago
  > You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash You absolutely can, remember, the phone is recording the accelerations of the phone, not the acceleration of your brain or car or anything heavy.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- appletrotter 3y ago
  > You cannot achieve g-forces dancing anywhere close to a serious crash. did you just make up that fact? https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force/ https://www.bernards.cz/news/irish-dancers-get-pilot-g-force...
  - Swizec 3y ago
    “pilot g-force” is nothing compared to a crash. Pilots get up 9G sustained because that’s when people start passing out. A 30mph car crash into a solid obstacle spikes at 30G https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g-force/ https://www.jrlawfirm.com/blog/auto-accidents/car-accident-g... Race car drivers have walked away from g-force as high as 78G https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappens-51g-to-ralf-schumachers-78g-biggest-ever-f1-crashes-in-terms-of-g-force/ https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-from-max-verstappe... We’re talking an order of magnitude here. Algorithms should be able to tell the difference.
    - jstanley 3y ago
      It's worth noting that a phone bouncing around in a pocket can experience substantially more acceleration than the person carrying it.
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        how much more? are we sure it's enough to excuse the failed crash detection described in the article (IE do we know the bouncing around generates multiple tens of Gs like an accident)? without such a confirmation, the error is still inexcused with it, the error seems like the feature is just poorly implemented or perhaps even poorly thought out
      - yifanl 3y ago
        Should this not have been accounted for when designing the feature?
        3y ago
- taeric 3y ago
  I am not claiming it isn't a problem. But consider, the roll out of cell phones was also a problem for first responders. We can and should fix it to make it better. And it isn't impossible to say how many were negatively affected, all told. It is hard in the moment, of course, but you can pull that signal out. Again, they should work to fix this. But don't ignore the benefits of the feature, as well. Edit: I also wouldn't be shocked to know that most of the dancing causing false reports were people dropping their phones. That will look a lot like a crash, for obvious reasons. Edit2: For the "difficulty determining the impact," it is worth noting that they specifically callout that they were not overwhelmed, such that there is no reason to think this caused specific issues.
- kotaKat 3y ago
  Crash Detection uses more than accelerometer and gyroscope input. Another major item it uses is listening for overall sound/noise from the microphones -- if it's loud, it's assuming a crash. Screaming and howling and bumping and grinding around the phone has no other clue other than "I must be in a crash". It leverages the GPS, microphone, barometer, Bluetooth, Carplay status, accelerometer, and gyroscope in a sensor fusion.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Doesn't that just make it even more embarrassing that this is happening then? No Carplay connection, mostly stationary on the GPS, gyroscope and accelerometer not showing anything near the signs of a crash. But, "it's loud" so let's call 911.
    - nucleardog 3y ago
      I don't think we know what it _actually_ detected these events as. Gizmodo is reporting car crashes, but I don't think there's any way for them to know that. The actual setting for the apple watch calls it a "severe crash" and has triggered for people crashing bicycles and things. There's also a separate "fall detection" setting that will call after a hard fall if you're not moving.
  - stronglikedan 3y ago
    If it's going off from dancing, then all that still isn't enough to justify its existence.
_Algernon_ 3y ago
The thing is, this feature puts a negative externality on all taxpayers, while only benefiting iphone owners and Apple's profits. Apple should be held accountable for the false positive calls this causes, if for no other reason that it incentivizes them to reduce the number of false positives.
- taeric 3y ago
  But, it doesn't? Save one person's elderly family member that took a hard fall, and it already more than paid off for them. Regardless of if they themselves have an apple device. Heck, get treatment more rapidly to anyone, and you probably saved costs all around. I'm fine investigating. And reporting on a lot of this is fine, of course. But this very story says it did not overwhelm them, such that they were getting utilized. Probably net good for training, overall. As it let them practice runbooks that may not get a lot of use.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thiht 3y ago

> I rushed a product to market Where do you see that they rushed it?