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and then selling them at auction with 100,000 ... However, their real mileage was sometimes as much as four times the odometer readout These numbers matter mor

and then selling them at auction with 100,000 ... However, their real mileage was sometimes as much as four times the odometer readout These numbers matter more here. The Cummins/Allison engine/drive-train in these vehicles are otherwise good for 1 million miles before rebuild on average until they are used as delivery trucks. The constant stopping and starting used as delivery trucks cuts that number down to around 480k miles. So they are selling vehicles that will require engine and transmission rebuilds in less than 80k miles. That's very shady. The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine and the transmission rebuild is around $3k. That does not count the cost to install them.

bagacrap 3y ago
HN never fails to deliver someone who really sounds like they know what they're talking about. Internet doesn't really corroborate these numbers afaict but hey
- jprete 3y ago
  This isn’t the kind of information that has ever been easy to find on the Internet.
- uncletaco 3y ago
  Well what does the internet say? Do you have links or context?
  - bagacrap 3y ago
    I don't really care what the answer is, I just decided to do a tiny bit of my own research to determine whether this confident sounding stranger was right or just sounded right.
- tredre3 3y ago
  I did a few google searches and even asked chatgpt, it's surprisingly hard to get a definitive answer. The consensus seems to be that after 500,000 miles the Cummins engine will either be dead or need to be rebuilt. 400,000 miles is considered high mileage that few achieve. So on the surface it seems like you might be right that LinuxBender was wrong. But he did sound quite knowledgeable, didn't he? So I still can't tell one way or another. Ah the beauty of the Internet :).
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    The issue is that "Cummins engine" is very generic, there are tens of different models, different bore x stroke, different power delivered, mounted on tens of different vehicles (with different weights and suited for different uses). Even the specific van/truck model Freightliner MT45 seemingly can mount different models of Cummins engines. Unless you find data for the specific model of engine and truck it is difficult to get valid numbers. Generally speaking, for heavy trucks and large engines, the 600,000 km (or 400,000 miles) is the mileage where an overhaul (not a whole rebuild) is needed. In a professional use, unless it is used in shifts, a truck will probably make 40,000 miles per year, so it should happen around 10 years age. The most common engine on the Freightliner MT45 seems to be the Cummins 6.7, which should be a little more resistant than the older 5.9, both can do 500,000 miles and more, in the "right hands" and with "proper maintenance". I doubt that used in a fleet (possibly "proper maintenance", but likely a lot of "wrong hands") it can reach 400,000 miles or more, and it makes sense for a fleet manager to sell at an auction the vehicles that are expected to need a large overhaul or a rebuild soon, in the article they talk about the fleet renovation happening around 350,000 miles.
    - LinuxBender 3y ago
      The consumer versions last half as long but that is a fun rabbit hole to go down, an adventure into the oil industry lobbyists, emission controls, etc... but it's a taboo topic here on HN. I do not try to red pill anyone and rather let them venture down the rabbit holes and do their own testing where it is safer to do so.
  - AngryData 3y ago
    Part of its lifespan depends on what kind of tuning it has, with some commercial engines being detuned for longevity instead of power output, and if it has extra optional features like additional oil or transmission cooling, or bypass oil filters, and other extras. Consumer vehicles however are often built and designed with lower lifespan expectations and a higher performance profile. But ive had numerous 90s+ low trim consumer vehicles breaking 300k miles easily and I know some semi-trucks do have 1 million+ miles on the original motor because of such features. And so while I don't have much experience with commercial delivery vehicles, I don't see any big problems with saying they could go a million miles themselves, although due to the nature of delivery driving and driver turnover I would also expect 400-500K miles to be when a rebuilt should be considered unless it was all done by one driver who doesn't drive like mad and they had skilled mechanics maintaining them. And if they didn't care about ruining the engine at some point I would expect 6-700K atleast if it was a well built commercial engine with commercial features.
SkyPuncher 3y ago
There's so much more than just the engine, though. I'm dealing with a bunch of aging issues on a car right now. A lot of this stuff won't even show for a few years down the road. * Shocks and struts wear out * Catalytic converters are a semi-wear item * In winter states that use salt, rust absolutely destroys things. I've had the exhaust system rust through on all of my vehicles (simply happens with age). * Seat cushions, steering wheel, and other high touch surfaces wear. Likely not an issue _now_, but means a few years down the road, these things will be broken. * Engine accessories - belts, starters, alternators, pumps, etc. Everything is just a bit closer to it's failure point. ---- Most of these issues aren't particularly expensive on their own, but they add up. Further, your expected maintenance is wildly different.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Salt (sodium chloride) is pretty rare anymore. It’s more expensive than another option. Liquid magnesium chloride is the goto in most states now, and you’ll be happy to know it’s even worse!
  - eatbitseveryday 3y ago
    Real table salt is never to be used as an ice melter on streets. “Salt” here is used in the chemical definition I would think.
    - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
      The UK uses 2 million tonnes of rock salt a year for road gritting, which is basically dirty table salt.
    - sgarman 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt It's still a mix often times but it's totally salt in some areas still.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      There is a salt mine up the road from me. The trucks start lining up for miles waiting for loads any time there is a winter storm expected. The only difference between that salt and table salt is that there is additional processing to the salt done when destined for table salt to ensure purity and shape. So, yes, they don't literally use table salt, but it is the same raw ingredient.
dylan604 3y ago
>The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine What's the difference between a rebuilt engine and a refurbished engine?
- LinuxBender 3y ago
  Effectively the same aside from time if you are waiting on yours to be rebuilt. One is the engine you have that needs to be rebuilt and the other was rebuilt because someone did a swap and now its inventory in a shop that sells refurbished engines. [Edit] Adding jaclaz's very good point that one might be able to save money rebuilding their own if it requires less parts.
  - throwaway173738 3y ago
    Some refurbished parts come with a short warranty as well which can help cut risk if the rebuild was done poorly. They come in crates from a factory so the people who did the work specialized and have probably seen all the potential problems.
    - LinuxBender 3y ago
      Agreed that is the direction I would go. The only reason I can think to wait on a rebuild would be if one knows/trusts the mechanic and/or they are having modifications done to the engine for cooling, turbo, fuel efficiency, brackets for different accessories like dual alternators, computer tuning after removing components from the engine, etc...
- jaclaz 3y ago
  A rebuilt engine is your engine where (hopefully) all needed to be replaced parts were actually replaced (locally). A refurbished engine is another engine (identical to yours) where all needed to be replaced parts were (still hopefully) replaced. The difference is that (it really depends on a case by case basis) your engine might need less parts replaced and the replacement is done by your local mechanic (all in all it can cost less in some cases). With refurbished engines all parts in a given list are replaced, no matter their current condition, and the replacement is done by workers that usually do everyday exactly that. The cost of a refurbished engine (you give them back yours that they will refurbish for next customer) can be a little less (including transport costs) because the refurbisher has spare parts cheaper due to quantity and personnel is faster (because they do this specific work everyday and have all the proper tooling) but often it is very similar. Your advantages with a refurbished engine are that it is generally faster than a local rebuild, and usually you are offered some kind of warranty (which may not be the case for a local rebuild). For a company, it is a way to minimize the stop of the vehicle and to place some responsibilities to the external supplier.
eschneider 3y ago
I'm surprised they didn't get caught sooner. If it was _just_ an odometer rollback, it should have been easy to catch something being 'off' from a cursory inspection of the vehicle. The wear on things like driver seat bolsters is very different at 100K miles and 400K miles (and even at much lower mileage) and when stuff like that doesn't match the odometer readings, alarm bells should be going off.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Note that the lawsuit was filed back in 2017, so it seems to have been working its way through the legal system for a few years at this point.
  - xethos 3y ago
    That's actually a seperate lawsuit, unrelated to the class action in the headline.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Oh thanks. My misunderstanding then. :)
      - cududa 3y ago
        The original plaintiff in the 2017 lawsuit popped into the comments section of the parent article, and did quite an amusing "AMA" sort of thing there. He makes a great point by saying something like "I filed this lawsuit in 2017, which means they were made aware of this practice 6 years they're doing this, and are apparently still doing it." Interesting that the top comment on this thread now is cautioning skepticism on the claims.
fredoralive 3y ago
I did have a weird thought, in a organisation as big as FedEx, would they have a pool of spare engines to minimise downtime? You could get unlucky and get a can with an engine that's been through a few chassis and end up with an ECU that knows the engine has done 400k miles whilst the chassis has only done 180k? Although that's probably a mad theory, if there is hijinks it probably is the good old fashioned kind, probably from this 3rd party middleman rather than FedEx themselves though.
- oasisbob 3y ago
  The value of having reliable vehicles probably outweighs the possible savings due to reactive deferred maintenance.
dghughes 3y ago
I had a 1/2 ton Dodge with a Cummins. The one thing you know or learn fast with a diesel is you change the fuel filter often. Diesel engines are nearly indestructible if the maintenance is done right at the very least the fuel filter.
- yardie 3y ago
  I've seen a diesel pulled out from the bottom of the bay, scrubbed clean, and installed in a new boat. The old boat caught on fire and sank. The old common rail diesels are damn hard to kill. Diesels need 3 things: fuel, oil, and coolant. Do not ever skimp on those 3.
  - birdman3131 3y ago
    Air helps a tiny bit as well.
    - yardie 3y ago
      You don’t supply the air. The list are the things a diesel need from you the operator.
themitigating 3y ago
What about every other component in the car?
daniel-cussen 3y ago
[dead]

bagacrap 3y ago

HN never fails to deliver someone who really sounds like they know what they're talking about. Internet doesn't really corroborate these numbers afaict but hey

jprete 3y ago
This isn’t the kind of information that has ever been easy to find on the Internet.
uncletaco 3y ago
Well what does the internet say? Do you have links or context?
- bagacrap 3y ago
  I don't really care what the answer is, I just decided to do a tiny bit of my own research to determine whether this confident sounding stranger was right or just sounded right.
tredre3 3y ago
I did a few google searches and even asked chatgpt, it's surprisingly hard to get a definitive answer. The consensus seems to be that after 500,000 miles the Cummins engine will either be dead or need to be rebuilt. 400,000 miles is considered high mileage that few achieve. So on the surface it seems like you might be right that LinuxBender was wrong. But he did sound quite knowledgeable, didn't he? So I still can't tell one way or another. Ah the beauty of the Internet :).
- jaclaz 3y ago
  The issue is that "Cummins engine" is very generic, there are tens of different models, different bore x stroke, different power delivered, mounted on tens of different vehicles (with different weights and suited for different uses). Even the specific van/truck model Freightliner MT45 seemingly can mount different models of Cummins engines. Unless you find data for the specific model of engine and truck it is difficult to get valid numbers. Generally speaking, for heavy trucks and large engines, the 600,000 km (or 400,000 miles) is the mileage where an overhaul (not a whole rebuild) is needed. In a professional use, unless it is used in shifts, a truck will probably make 40,000 miles per year, so it should happen around 10 years age. The most common engine on the Freightliner MT45 seems to be the Cummins 6.7, which should be a little more resistant than the older 5.9, both can do 500,000 miles and more, in the "right hands" and with "proper maintenance". I doubt that used in a fleet (possibly "proper maintenance", but likely a lot of "wrong hands") it can reach 400,000 miles or more, and it makes sense for a fleet manager to sell at an auction the vehicles that are expected to need a large overhaul or a rebuild soon, in the article they talk about the fleet renovation happening around 350,000 miles.
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    The consumer versions last half as long but that is a fun rabbit hole to go down, an adventure into the oil industry lobbyists, emission controls, etc... but it's a taboo topic here on HN. I do not try to red pill anyone and rather let them venture down the rabbit holes and do their own testing where it is safer to do so.
- AngryData 3y ago
  Part of its lifespan depends on what kind of tuning it has, with some commercial engines being detuned for longevity instead of power output, and if it has extra optional features like additional oil or transmission cooling, or bypass oil filters, and other extras. Consumer vehicles however are often built and designed with lower lifespan expectations and a higher performance profile. But ive had numerous 90s+ low trim consumer vehicles breaking 300k miles easily and I know some semi-trucks do have 1 million+ miles on the original motor because of such features. And so while I don't have much experience with commercial delivery vehicles, I don't see any big problems with saying they could go a million miles themselves, although due to the nature of delivery driving and driver turnover I would also expect 400-500K miles to be when a rebuilt should be considered unless it was all done by one driver who doesn't drive like mad and they had skilled mechanics maintaining them. And if they didn't care about ruining the engine at some point I would expect 6-700K atleast if it was a well built commercial engine with commercial features.

SkyPuncher 3y ago

There's so much more than just the engine, though. I'm dealing with a bunch of aging issues on a car right now. A lot of this stuff won't even show for a few years down the road. * Shocks and struts wear out * Catalytic converters are a semi-wear item * In winter states that use salt, rust absolutely destroys things. I've had the exhaust system rust through on all of my vehicles (simply happens with age). * Seat cushions, steering wheel, and other high touch surfaces wear. Likely not an issue _now_, but means a few years down the road, these things will be broken. * Engine accessories - belts, starters, alternators, pumps, etc. Everything is just a bit closer to it's failure point. ---- Most of these issues aren't particularly expensive on their own, but they add up. Further, your expected maintenance is wildly different.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
Salt (sodium chloride) is pretty rare anymore. It’s more expensive than another option. Liquid magnesium chloride is the goto in most states now, and you’ll be happy to know it’s even worse!
- eatbitseveryday 3y ago
  Real table salt is never to be used as an ice melter on streets. “Salt” here is used in the chemical definition I would think.
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    The UK uses 2 million tonnes of rock salt a year for road gritting, which is basically dirty table salt.
  - sgarman 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Belt It's still a mix often times but it's totally salt in some areas still.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    There is a salt mine up the road from me. The trucks start lining up for miles waiting for loads any time there is a winter storm expected. The only difference between that salt and table salt is that there is additional processing to the salt done when destined for table salt to ensure purity and shape. So, yes, they don't literally use table salt, but it is the same raw ingredient.

dylan604 3y ago

>The engine rebuilds are usually around $10k same as a refurbished engine What's the difference between a rebuilt engine and a refurbished engine?

LinuxBender 3y ago
Effectively the same aside from time if you are waiting on yours to be rebuilt. One is the engine you have that needs to be rebuilt and the other was rebuilt because someone did a swap and now its inventory in a shop that sells refurbished engines. [Edit] Adding jaclaz's very good point that one might be able to save money rebuilding their own if it requires less parts.
- throwaway173738 3y ago
  Some refurbished parts come with a short warranty as well which can help cut risk if the rebuild was done poorly. They come in crates from a factory so the people who did the work specialized and have probably seen all the potential problems.
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    Agreed that is the direction I would go. The only reason I can think to wait on a rebuild would be if one knows/trusts the mechanic and/or they are having modifications done to the engine for cooling, turbo, fuel efficiency, brackets for different accessories like dual alternators, computer tuning after removing components from the engine, etc...
jaclaz 3y ago
A rebuilt engine is your engine where (hopefully) all needed to be replaced parts were actually replaced (locally). A refurbished engine is another engine (identical to yours) where all needed to be replaced parts were (still hopefully) replaced. The difference is that (it really depends on a case by case basis) your engine might need less parts replaced and the replacement is done by your local mechanic (all in all it can cost less in some cases). With refurbished engines all parts in a given list are replaced, no matter their current condition, and the replacement is done by workers that usually do everyday exactly that. The cost of a refurbished engine (you give them back yours that they will refurbish for next customer) can be a little less (including transport costs) because the refurbisher has spare parts cheaper due to quantity and personnel is faster (because they do this specific work everyday and have all the proper tooling) but often it is very similar. Your advantages with a refurbished engine are that it is generally faster than a local rebuild, and usually you are offered some kind of warranty (which may not be the case for a local rebuild). For a company, it is a way to minimize the stop of the vehicle and to place some responsibilities to the external supplier.

eschneider 3y ago

I'm surprised they didn't get caught sooner. If it was _just_ an odometer rollback, it should have been easy to catch something being 'off' from a cursory inspection of the vehicle. The wear on things like driver seat bolsters is very different at 100K miles and 400K miles (and even at much lower mileage) and when stuff like that doesn't match the odometer readings, alarm bells should be going off.

justinclift 3y ago
Note that the lawsuit was filed back in 2017, so it seems to have been working its way through the legal system for a few years at this point.
- xethos 3y ago
  That's actually a seperate lawsuit, unrelated to the class action in the headline.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Oh thanks. My misunderstanding then. :)
    - cududa 3y ago
      The original plaintiff in the 2017 lawsuit popped into the comments section of the parent article, and did quite an amusing "AMA" sort of thing there. He makes a great point by saying something like "I filed this lawsuit in 2017, which means they were made aware of this practice 6 years they're doing this, and are apparently still doing it." Interesting that the top comment on this thread now is cautioning skepticism on the claims.

fredoralive 3y ago

I did have a weird thought, in a organisation as big as FedEx, would they have a pool of spare engines to minimise downtime? You could get unlucky and get a can with an engine that's been through a few chassis and end up with an ECU that knows the engine has done 400k miles whilst the chassis has only done 180k? Although that's probably a mad theory, if there is hijinks it probably is the good old fashioned kind, probably from this 3rd party middleman rather than FedEx themselves though.

oasisbob 3y ago
The value of having reliable vehicles probably outweighs the possible savings due to reactive deferred maintenance.

dghughes 3y ago

I had a 1/2 ton Dodge with a Cummins. The one thing you know or learn fast with a diesel is you change the fuel filter often. Diesel engines are nearly indestructible if the maintenance is done right at the very least the fuel filter.

yardie 3y ago
I've seen a diesel pulled out from the bottom of the bay, scrubbed clean, and installed in a new boat. The old boat caught on fire and sank. The old common rail diesels are damn hard to kill. Diesels need 3 things: fuel, oil, and coolant. Do not ever skimp on those 3.
- birdman3131 3y ago
  Air helps a tiny bit as well.
  - yardie 3y ago
    You don’t supply the air. The list are the things a diesel need from you the operator.

themitigating 3y ago

What about every other component in the car?

daniel-cussen 3y ago

[dead]