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Zawinski's Law: "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can." "Apps that you

Zawinski's Law: "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can." "Apps that you "live in" all day have pressure to become everything and do everything. An app for editing text becomes an IDE, then an OS. An app for displaying hypertext documents becomes a mail reader, then an OS." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski#Zawinski's_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski#Zawinski's_Law

moffkalast 3y ago
The existence of Chromebooks confirms it. When a whole OS is just there to run the web browser, the browser is the real OS. The real question is why the OS can't do the job of the web browser in the first place. Has anyone ever tried integrating one so that people could use web pages in the same native integrated way as programs, opening them like say, a file manager would open directories? I guess Electron, but that doesn't really count given that it's just a reskinned browser.
- jadbox 3y ago
  All operating systems today (macos, windows, kde, gnome) actually have their own native WebViews. However, there are very mixed capabilities supported. For example, I believe WebView on MacOs has limited support to store local data.
- whiddershins 3y ago
  That’s literally what Microsoft did with windows explorer/internet explorer
- kevincox 3y ago
  I think it is because they invented tabs. This window grouping proved to be useful. KDE has tabs but I don't think there is a way to say "open a new window tabbed with this one" so simple functions such as middle-click to open a link in a new tab are very hard to implement. macOS was sort of closer here with grouping windows by application but it didn't provide good management options and you couldn't regroup manually. So browsers implement their own tabs and so browsers are basically becoming a second window manager. Once you have this it is natural to consume more "applications" to fit into your window manager. The web is a powerful enough feature to start this process. I wrote about this a while back https://kevincox.ca/2021/01/11/tabs-were-a-mistake/ https://kevincox.ca/2021/01/11/tabs-were-a-mistake/
  - js8 3y ago
    Before browser tabs, there was https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-document_interface https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-document_interface The opinion whether it's good or bad also varied.
    - kevincox 3y ago
      Personally I think this didn't catch on because it is quite janky in most use cases. If it had caught on we probably would have seen the same problems we see with tabs creating a second window manager/OS.
  - jsmith99 3y ago
    Interesting post. Edge actually (by default) treats tabs as separate windows for Alt+Tab purposes.
  - tomjen3 3y ago
    BeOS has tabs.
- jameshart 3y ago
  Installing PWAs as apps on a device seems like kind of what you’re looking for
- adl 3y ago
  OS/2 Warp did something similar to what you describe, but with FTP sites: You could navigate them using the file manager, just like any other folder, create links, bookmarks, etc. I vaguely remember saving web bookmarks as files, and using the built-in browser to navigate them to them. The shell (WPS) had the philosophy: "everything is an object". It was very cool for its time.
- tomjen3 3y ago
  With the new version of Mac OS X coming up, you can install websites that are handled transparently in Safari.
ilyt 3y ago
Think that needs to be changed to "have a builtin web browser engine"
vogon_laureate 3y ago
I love that and agree with it. Now when can I read my email in Obsidian running on Obsidian OS?

moffkalast 3y ago

The existence of Chromebooks confirms it. When a whole OS is just there to run the web browser, the browser is the real OS. The real question is why the OS can't do the job of the web browser in the first place. Has anyone ever tried integrating one so that people could use web pages in the same native integrated way as programs, opening them like say, a file manager would open directories? I guess Electron, but that doesn't really count given that it's just a reskinned browser.

jadbox 3y ago
All operating systems today (macos, windows, kde, gnome) actually have their own native WebViews. However, there are very mixed capabilities supported. For example, I believe WebView on MacOs has limited support to store local data.
whiddershins 3y ago
That’s literally what Microsoft did with windows explorer/internet explorer
kevincox 3y ago
I think it is because they invented tabs. This window grouping proved to be useful. KDE has tabs but I don't think there is a way to say "open a new window tabbed with this one" so simple functions such as middle-click to open a link in a new tab are very hard to implement. macOS was sort of closer here with grouping windows by application but it didn't provide good management options and you couldn't regroup manually. So browsers implement their own tabs and so browsers are basically becoming a second window manager. Once you have this it is natural to consume more "applications" to fit into your window manager. The web is a powerful enough feature to start this process. I wrote about this a while back https://kevincox.ca/2021/01/11/tabs-were-a-mistake/ https://kevincox.ca/2021/01/11/tabs-were-a-mistake/
- js8 3y ago
  Before browser tabs, there was https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-document_interface https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-document_interface The opinion whether it's good or bad also varied.
  - kevincox 3y ago
    Personally I think this didn't catch on because it is quite janky in most use cases. If it had caught on we probably would have seen the same problems we see with tabs creating a second window manager/OS.
- jsmith99 3y ago
  Interesting post. Edge actually (by default) treats tabs as separate windows for Alt+Tab purposes.
- tomjen3 3y ago
  BeOS has tabs.
jameshart 3y ago
Installing PWAs as apps on a device seems like kind of what you’re looking for
adl 3y ago
OS/2 Warp did something similar to what you describe, but with FTP sites: You could navigate them using the file manager, just like any other folder, create links, bookmarks, etc. I vaguely remember saving web bookmarks as files, and using the built-in browser to navigate them to them. The shell (WPS) had the philosophy: "everything is an object". It was very cool for its time.
tomjen3 3y ago
With the new version of Mac OS X coming up, you can install websites that are handled transparently in Safari.

ilyt 3y ago

Think that needs to be changed to "have a builtin web browser engine"

vogon_laureate 3y ago

I love that and agree with it. Now when can I read my email in Obsidian running on Obsidian OS?