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"Pedestrian deaths have been climbing since 2010 because of unsafe infrastructure and the prevalence of SUVs, which tend to be more deadly for pedestrians than

"Pedestrian deaths have been climbing since 2010 because of unsafe infrastructure and the prevalence of SUVs, which tend to be more deadly for pedestrians than smaller cars, according to Martin" The report itself shows there's an increase in pedestrian fatalities in slightly fewer than half of states and the increase comes from deaths at night and not in the daytime. How would an increase in SUVs (which is a national trend) cause this result?

littlestymaar 3y ago
> How would an increase in SUVs (which is a national trend) cause this result? It's going to depend a lot on local pedestrian habits and on the available infrastructures: as a thought experiment say in State A people are never walking in the street, while in State B they are walking a lot, then the national increase in SUV will have no impact on pedestrian death in State A but will have on State B.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Only if this is true. If the increase at night then it's unlikely to be because of SUVs, unless there's correlating evidence that shows it's states where SUVs are driven at night more. If there were evidence found that is linked to nighttime, e.g. because more people are crossing roads at night than before, or wearing less night-visible clothing than before, then that would be the place to start.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    I wonder how much is actually attributable to people moving from one state to another, where the second state doesn't "drive the same" as where they're used to.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    there may be different correlations, for example maybe suv's limit too much the visibility at night, but yes, we need more data
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > If the increase at night then it's unlikely to be because of SUVs, unless there's correlating evidence that shows it's states where SUVs are driven at night more. Or if you replace “people walk” by “people walk at night” in my example above… That is to say, there are many parameters at stake here, and you cannot infer or refute anything from the aggregated data.
robertlagrant 3y ago
I hadn't spotted this, but you're right. It's actually slightly worse - to justify this, the author links to another article titled "Fatal Pedestrian Crashes Increasingly Involve SUVs, Study Finds". I say this is off because an increase in proportion of SUV involvement is primarily an indictator of popularity of SUVs, rather than anything about SUVs being more deadly. I happen to believe, fairly uncontroversially, I think, that SUVs are far more deadly than a regular car, hitting adults in the chest instead of the legs, and children in the head instead of the chest, but I also think poor journalism is pretty dangerous, and worth investigating.
- ht85 3y ago
  This is completely anecdotal but from my experience bad and inconsiderate drivers also gravitate towards big vehicles.
0xEF 3y ago
Visibility, maybe? As interior comfort took priority in design, those beefier body columns resulted in larger blind spots. Also, some SUVs are just massive, and might suffer from similar forward-visibility limitations that modern pickup trucks (classified as "light trucks," oddly) are getting slammed for right now, namely the front end being so high that the driver can't see a 3 foot object 16 feet in front of them.
Rapzid 3y ago
> When the pandemic arrived, there was an even greater surge as empty roads gave way to speeding and distracted driving. Wait, so more cars is actually the answer. Fewer cars == more deaths. > The pandemic has waned, but cases of reckless driving — and subsequently the number of Americans killed while walking — has not. Ah crap, maybe everyone has long COVID then?
- jansan 3y ago
  More cars => fewer pedestrians Sometimes the easiest solutions hide in plain sight.
  - danuker 3y ago
    Survival of the fittest! And the fittest are driving 2-ton death machines.
    - Rapzid 3y ago
      We can stop these senseless pedestrian deaths. One SUV per child; let's gooo! Gonna start working on my TED talk.
- paulgb 3y ago
  Anecdotally, in NYC it feels like something “clicked” during COVID where some small but meaningful segment of drivers just stopped caring about any social contract. I see more cars blatantly running reds, driving with expired (or no) plates, and doing stupid things to shave a few seconds off their commute.
eimrine 3y ago
> How would an increase in SUVs (which is a national trend) cause this result? Do you agree that a SUV has worse ability to observe the road? Do you agree that a pedestrian has more chances to survive after being hit by a small car? If you answer "yes" to both my question than you have to understand that the real question is "why an increase in SUVs is not causing this result in other states". If your answer is "no" then you are talking not about "this result" but about a something else.
- ALittleLight 3y ago
  SUVs are certain to be more deadly - they are bigger and higher, but they are replacing older cars and older cars, by dint of lack of modern safety features and degraded condition, are likelier to be in an accident - so the effect of more SUVs is not obvious. Regardless, the fact is that the increase in pedestrian deaths is mostly in a few states and mostly in nighttime driving and SUVs don't explain either of those factors.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
polytely 3y ago
might even be people being worse at driving because of post-covid brain fog
x3874 3y ago
At some times, if you have to push an agenda.
everdrive 3y ago
Playing devil’s advocate, since I think the article didn’t really address this very well. I would assume that SUVs can have two issues with regard to pedestrian deaths. - Worse outcomes when pedestrians are struck. A lower car might “merely” break legs, while an SUV with a higher belt line might strike a head or vital organ and be more lethal. SUVs tend to weigh more as well, which only hurts pedestrians. - Worse visibility due to higher higher ground clearance, longer hoods, and of course modern rollover protection. I wouldn’t be shocked if you could do a study on pedestrian visibility using a passenger car from 2000, and an SUV from 2023, and found that the SUV had significantly worse visibility of pedestrians.

littlestymaar 3y ago

> How would an increase in SUVs (which is a national trend) cause this result? It's going to depend a lot on local pedestrian habits and on the available infrastructures: as a thought experiment say in State A people are never walking in the street, while in State B they are walking a lot, then the national increase in SUV will have no impact on pedestrian death in State A but will have on State B.

robertlagrant 3y ago
Only if this is true. If the increase at night then it's unlikely to be because of SUVs, unless there's correlating evidence that shows it's states where SUVs are driven at night more. If there were evidence found that is linked to nighttime, e.g. because more people are crossing roads at night than before, or wearing less night-visible clothing than before, then that would be the place to start.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I wonder how much is actually attributable to people moving from one state to another, where the second state doesn't "drive the same" as where they're used to.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  there may be different correlations, for example maybe suv's limit too much the visibility at night, but yes, we need more data
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > If the increase at night then it's unlikely to be because of SUVs, unless there's correlating evidence that shows it's states where SUVs are driven at night more. Or if you replace “people walk” by “people walk at night” in my example above… That is to say, there are many parameters at stake here, and you cannot infer or refute anything from the aggregated data.

robertlagrant 3y ago

I hadn't spotted this, but you're right. It's actually slightly worse - to justify this, the author links to another article titled "Fatal Pedestrian Crashes Increasingly Involve SUVs, Study Finds". I say this is off because an increase in proportion of SUV involvement is primarily an indictator of popularity of SUVs, rather than anything about SUVs being more deadly. I happen to believe, fairly uncontroversially, I think, that SUVs are far more deadly than a regular car, hitting adults in the chest instead of the legs, and children in the head instead of the chest, but I also think poor journalism is pretty dangerous, and worth investigating.

ht85 3y ago
This is completely anecdotal but from my experience bad and inconsiderate drivers also gravitate towards big vehicles.

0xEF 3y ago

Visibility, maybe? As interior comfort took priority in design, those beefier body columns resulted in larger blind spots. Also, some SUVs are just massive, and might suffer from similar forward-visibility limitations that modern pickup trucks (classified as "light trucks," oddly) are getting slammed for right now, namely the front end being so high that the driver can't see a 3 foot object 16 feet in front of them.

Rapzid 3y ago

> When the pandemic arrived, there was an even greater surge as empty roads gave way to speeding and distracted driving. Wait, so more cars is actually the answer. Fewer cars == more deaths. > The pandemic has waned, but cases of reckless driving — and subsequently the number of Americans killed while walking — has not. Ah crap, maybe everyone has long COVID then?

jansan 3y ago
More cars => fewer pedestrians Sometimes the easiest solutions hide in plain sight.
- danuker 3y ago
  Survival of the fittest! And the fittest are driving 2-ton death machines.
  - Rapzid 3y ago
    We can stop these senseless pedestrian deaths. One SUV per child; let's gooo! Gonna start working on my TED talk.
paulgb 3y ago
Anecdotally, in NYC it feels like something “clicked” during COVID where some small but meaningful segment of drivers just stopped caring about any social contract. I see more cars blatantly running reds, driving with expired (or no) plates, and doing stupid things to shave a few seconds off their commute.

eimrine 3y ago

> How would an increase in SUVs (which is a national trend) cause this result? Do you agree that a SUV has worse ability to observe the road? Do you agree that a pedestrian has more chances to survive after being hit by a small car? If you answer "yes" to both my question than you have to understand that the real question is "why an increase in SUVs is not causing this result in other states". If your answer is "no" then you are talking not about "this result" but about a something else.

ALittleLight 3y ago
SUVs are certain to be more deadly - they are bigger and higher, but they are replacing older cars and older cars, by dint of lack of modern safety features and degraded condition, are likelier to be in an accident - so the effect of more SUVs is not obvious. Regardless, the fact is that the increase in pedestrian deaths is mostly in a few states and mostly in nighttime driving and SUVs don't explain either of those factors.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

polytely 3y ago

might even be people being worse at driving because of post-covid brain fog

x3874 3y ago

At some times, if you have to push an agenda.

everdrive 3y ago

Playing devil’s advocate, since I think the article didn’t really address this very well. I would assume that SUVs can have two issues with regard to pedestrian deaths. - Worse outcomes when pedestrians are struck. A lower car might “merely” break legs, while an SUV with a higher belt line might strike a head or vital organ and be more lethal. SUVs tend to weigh more as well, which only hurts pedestrians. - Worse visibility due to higher higher ground clearance, longer hoods, and of course modern rollover protection. I wouldn’t be shocked if you could do a study on pedestrian visibility using a passenger car from 2000, and an SUV from 2023, and found that the SUV had significantly worse visibility of pedestrians.