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E-Bikes need major reforms, at least in my area (Toronto). The problem I see it is you have two categories of the product labeled the same. On one hand, there

E-Bikes need major reforms, at least in my area (Toronto). The problem I see it is you have two categories of the product labeled the same. On one hand, there are conventional bicycles equipped with pedal-assisted motors, designed to mimic typical human-powered speeds. On the other hand, there are E-Bikes marketed as potential substitutes for motorcycles. Most of my issues come from people riding the latter of those two categories, however some of the concerns directly relate to both. E-Bikes have a huge part of their ownership caught up into two groups that are doing the entire sector harm as well, the first group causing harm is those who are out modifying these bikes and getting them up to highway speeds in some cases, the second group are people who are turned to these as a mode of transport because they have lost their licenses due to DUIs and now take those same impairments to the E-Bike world. Several crucial problems exacerbate the situation: the absence of mandatory safety equipment such as helmets, the lack of insurance coverage, insufficient training provisions, and the absence of mechanisms for accountability and identification of riders and their respective bikes. In my personal opinion, a comprehensive solution for my region involves licensing all E-Bikes under the moped or limited-speed motorcycle license, requiring license plates, and implementing cost-effective insurance options (possibly achieved through government subsidization).

MattRix 3y ago
Requiring things like licenses and insurance would be a great way to drasticially reduce the uptake of ebikes, which seems like a horrible idea. I think this is a situation where your proposes solution (which I don’t think would be effective anyway!) is worse than the problem.
- monkeywork 3y ago
  Dramatically INCREASING the uptake of something that has serious safety concerns shouldn't be something we urge people to do. I can't see how having more untrained, unregistered, unregulated, vehicles and riders flying around is a good thing in any scenario.
  - s0rce 3y ago
    Cars operated by "trained" and registered and regulated people kill more than ebikes.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - s0rce 3y ago
        We don't allow ebikes on the road?
    - monkeywork 3y ago
      How is that an argument? That in no way counters a single point I made - or are you just trying to distract?
  - acover 3y ago
    Are you talking about serious safety risk to the rider or too others? From what I can find ebikes tend to kill their rider. Though I can't find good statistics to answer my question.
    - monkeywork 3y ago
      >Are you talking about serious safety risk to the rider or too others? To the rider, pedestrians, riders of traditional bikes, and property damage.
    - tguvot 3y ago
      in israel e-things tend to kill pedestrians (half a dozen of deaths a year i think, maybe more). and a whole lot of injuries.
  - MattRix 3y ago
    I never said they should be unregulated! There should still be laws that ebike users have to follow (just like regular bike users do), and police should enforce those laws as strictly as possible so that most people comply to them. You can do this without requiring training, licenses or insurance.
- parineum 3y ago
  I hope you're not responsible for solving the shortages of airline pilots.
  - MattRix 3y ago
    This has nothing to do with pilots, it has to do with ebikes. They are completely different contexts.
- analog31 3y ago
  Ironically, insurance would make it cheaper for most of us. My rationale is that car insurance carriers would compete to sign up bike commuters because of the reduced liability risk, and would do so by offering us lower rates on our car policies.
  - aembleton 3y ago
    What stops insurance companies from doing that now? Car insurance companies could ask if you have a bike and give you a reduced policy.
    - analog31 3y ago
      Good point and question. Don't know. One possible thing is that the insurance companies value higher premiums more than lower payouts.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Here in Tokyo, it's legally required to have liability insurance to ride a bicycle. I don't know how many people actually do this, but it is the legal requirement. It's also very inexpensive (and a good idea in case you hurt a pedestrian). It hasn't stopped bicycling from being very popular for getting around, and it seems like every mother with kids has an ebike with a child seat or two.
tguvot 3y ago
"love" it that you got downvoted for expressing common sense based in your expirience In Israel ebikes/escooters became popular 15 years ago if not more. They are universally hated by non riders, because - riders tend not to obey any rules - there is a bunch of deaths every year because e-whatever run into pedestrians on high speeds - it's very fun to ride car on road and have somebody on e-whatever play chicken with you. especially during night. (once, one of those riders chased me to my home and demanded "compensation" for something) - a whole bunch of fires due to exploding batteries (there is now Israeli startup that installs fire-proof charging stations/enclosures) - no enforcement as policy too busy to deal with other stuff So yes, for those who use it, it's probably comfortable and fun. Adds another drop into solving transportation/environmental problems. But at absence of proper legalization and enforcement it's not fun not be around them
- MattRix 3y ago
  I think just about everyone agrees that e-bikes need regulations with strong enforcement. We just don’t agree that they also require training, licensing and insurance. However bad you think e-bikes are, the fact remains that cars are worse. As long as e-bikes are replacing cars, they’re a good thing.
  - monkeywork 3y ago
    You will never have proper enforcement without training, licensing, and insurance. For proof on that look at the lack of enforcement of traditional bikes and basic road safety for our entire lives
    - MattRix 3y ago
      Not sure how that’s proof of anything? Traditional bikes are not dangerous to other road users, why would enforcement need to be super strict?
  - tguvot 3y ago
    lets talk about insurance. do you think cars shouldn't have insurance as well ?
codazoda 3y ago
That’s the opposite of what we need. Bikes should be unencumbered by all that crap. Helmets are a good idea and may save some money but it would be better to make those free as part of the deal than to regulate them. I don’t understand the argument for registration, plates, motorcycle, etc. We’re talking about low speed, low risk, low property damage. Sure, you can die or cause death on one but it’s so much less likely than a car and the exercise alone would have a positive impact in the U.S. that could very well offset the costs.
- cmdli 3y ago
  As someone who rides motorcycles, even low speed collisions can be dangerous. Anything above ~20mph means that you are going to hit the ground pretty hard and then skid, taking off skin. Regular bikes are mostly fine, but it quickly gets dangerous even to fall off in a single-person accident at higher speeds.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- monkeywork 3y ago
  >We’re talking about low speed, low risk, low property damage. You realize that many of these are now being sold going 40-60mph ... that's not low speed, not low risk (many of them are built with wheels and brakes that are not safe for the speeds not to mention the cheap chinese batteries that catch on fire), nor low property damage when they hit things at top speed. > exercise alone would have a positive impact in the U.S. that could very well offset the costs. What exercise? The vast majority of these being sold aren't "pedal assisted" they are full electric sudo motorcycles.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    In america, at least in washington state we are limited to 750w and 25mph. You can throttle or pedal assist and then the motor cuts out and it's just you and your legs. There are some electric scooters (think vespa, not razor) and such, but those need to be licensed like motorcycles.
derbOac 3y ago
I see this all the time as well in a different area, and am really concerned about it. It was on my mind today as I was biking. I know what you mean about there being two types of ebikes, and agree: one is basically a regular bike with assist, the other is basically a moped or motorcycle. They often look different as well, probably because of the battery size. The problem I have is that individuals are riding the motorcycle-style ones on paths that are clearly designated as off-limits to motor vehicles for safety reasons. These are paths that see high use, with lots of pedestrians and cyclists, and the speeds that people are riding them strikes me as unsafe. They're often much faster than what someone could physically achieve without a motor. They're also often driven by older children, teenagers, or very young adults, many riding them in pairs, one driving, the other sitting behind. If you were to step back and just consider the the moped-style ebikes for what they are, that's what they are: electric mopeds or motorcycles on a path designated for pedestrian and cycling use only. My spouse works in rehab and has started seeing injuries from collisions involving these bikes, and they're basically the same as moped or motorcycle injuries. I'm not sure what the solution is, because the "regular" ebikes seem just like bikes to me, and it seems strange to require a license and training for them. But it also seems unacceptable to let motorized vehicles on trails specifically meant to be free of them, because of a loophole in regulations.
- yrro 3y ago
  For the illegal electric mopeds/motorbikes I ask myself what stops someone driving an illegal petrol moped/motorbike around without type certification/registration/licensing/insurance? Why are electric vehicles somehow able to be sold bypassing those requirements? For the legal "electrically assisted pedal cycles" as they are called in the UK, the solution has to be police actually doing their jobs: when they see the driver of a bike with a battery & cargo casually going >= 20 mph without any effort being put into the pedals (I spot these every single day, nearly all of which are operated by Deliveroo/Just Eat/Uber Eats): Stop them! Confiscate the vehicle! Prosecute the driver for driving an unregistered, non-certified vehicle, uninsured and without a driving license!
  - monkeywork 3y ago

MattRix 3y ago

Requiring things like licenses and insurance would be a great way to drasticially reduce the uptake of ebikes, which seems like a horrible idea. I think this is a situation where your proposes solution (which I don’t think would be effective anyway!) is worse than the problem.

monkeywork 3y ago
Dramatically INCREASING the uptake of something that has serious safety concerns shouldn't be something we urge people to do. I can't see how having more untrained, unregistered, unregulated, vehicles and riders flying around is a good thing in any scenario.
- s0rce 3y ago
  Cars operated by "trained" and registered and regulated people kill more than ebikes.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - s0rce 3y ago
      We don't allow ebikes on the road?
  - monkeywork 3y ago
    How is that an argument? That in no way counters a single point I made - or are you just trying to distract?
- acover 3y ago
  Are you talking about serious safety risk to the rider or too others? From what I can find ebikes tend to kill their rider. Though I can't find good statistics to answer my question.
  - monkeywork 3y ago
    >Are you talking about serious safety risk to the rider or too others? To the rider, pedestrians, riders of traditional bikes, and property damage.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    in israel e-things tend to kill pedestrians (half a dozen of deaths a year i think, maybe more). and a whole lot of injuries.
- MattRix 3y ago
  I never said they should be unregulated! There should still be laws that ebike users have to follow (just like regular bike users do), and police should enforce those laws as strictly as possible so that most people comply to them. You can do this without requiring training, licenses or insurance.
parineum 3y ago
I hope you're not responsible for solving the shortages of airline pilots.
- MattRix 3y ago
  This has nothing to do with pilots, it has to do with ebikes. They are completely different contexts.
analog31 3y ago
Ironically, insurance would make it cheaper for most of us. My rationale is that car insurance carriers would compete to sign up bike commuters because of the reduced liability risk, and would do so by offering us lower rates on our car policies.
- aembleton 3y ago
  What stops insurance companies from doing that now? Car insurance companies could ask if you have a bike and give you a reduced policy.
  - analog31 3y ago
    Good point and question. Don't know. One possible thing is that the insurance companies value higher premiums more than lower payouts.
midoridensha 3y ago
Here in Tokyo, it's legally required to have liability insurance to ride a bicycle. I don't know how many people actually do this, but it is the legal requirement. It's also very inexpensive (and a good idea in case you hurt a pedestrian). It hasn't stopped bicycling from being very popular for getting around, and it seems like every mother with kids has an ebike with a child seat or two.

tguvot 3y ago

"love" it that you got downvoted for expressing common sense based in your expirience In Israel ebikes/escooters became popular 15 years ago if not more. They are universally hated by non riders, because - riders tend not to obey any rules - there is a bunch of deaths every year because e-whatever run into pedestrians on high speeds - it's very fun to ride car on road and have somebody on e-whatever play chicken with you. especially during night. (once, one of those riders chased me to my home and demanded "compensation" for something) - a whole bunch of fires due to exploding batteries (there is now Israeli startup that installs fire-proof charging stations/enclosures) - no enforcement as policy too busy to deal with other stuff So yes, for those who use it, it's probably comfortable and fun. Adds another drop into solving transportation/environmental problems. But at absence of proper legalization and enforcement it's not fun not be around them

MattRix 3y ago
I think just about everyone agrees that e-bikes need regulations with strong enforcement. We just don’t agree that they also require training, licensing and insurance. However bad you think e-bikes are, the fact remains that cars are worse. As long as e-bikes are replacing cars, they’re a good thing.
- monkeywork 3y ago
  You will never have proper enforcement without training, licensing, and insurance. For proof on that look at the lack of enforcement of traditional bikes and basic road safety for our entire lives
  - MattRix 3y ago
    Not sure how that’s proof of anything? Traditional bikes are not dangerous to other road users, why would enforcement need to be super strict?
- tguvot 3y ago
  lets talk about insurance. do you think cars shouldn't have insurance as well ?

codazoda 3y ago

That’s the opposite of what we need. Bikes should be unencumbered by all that crap. Helmets are a good idea and may save some money but it would be better to make those free as part of the deal than to regulate them. I don’t understand the argument for registration, plates, motorcycle, etc. We’re talking about low speed, low risk, low property damage. Sure, you can die or cause death on one but it’s so much less likely than a car and the exercise alone would have a positive impact in the U.S. that could very well offset the costs.

cmdli 3y ago
As someone who rides motorcycles, even low speed collisions can be dangerous. Anything above ~20mph means that you are going to hit the ground pretty hard and then skid, taking off skin. Regular bikes are mostly fine, but it quickly gets dangerous even to fall off in a single-person accident at higher speeds.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
monkeywork 3y ago
>We’re talking about low speed, low risk, low property damage. You realize that many of these are now being sold going 40-60mph ... that's not low speed, not low risk (many of them are built with wheels and brakes that are not safe for the speeds not to mention the cheap chinese batteries that catch on fire), nor low property damage when they hit things at top speed. > exercise alone would have a positive impact in the U.S. that could very well offset the costs. What exercise? The vast majority of these being sold aren't "pedal assisted" they are full electric sudo motorcycles.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  In america, at least in washington state we are limited to 750w and 25mph. You can throttle or pedal assist and then the motor cuts out and it's just you and your legs. There are some electric scooters (think vespa, not razor) and such, but those need to be licensed like motorcycles.

derbOac 3y ago

I see this all the time as well in a different area, and am really concerned about it. It was on my mind today as I was biking. I know what you mean about there being two types of ebikes, and agree: one is basically a regular bike with assist, the other is basically a moped or motorcycle. They often look different as well, probably because of the battery size. The problem I have is that individuals are riding the motorcycle-style ones on paths that are clearly designated as off-limits to motor vehicles for safety reasons. These are paths that see high use, with lots of pedestrians and cyclists, and the speeds that people are riding them strikes me as unsafe. They're often much faster than what someone could physically achieve without a motor. They're also often driven by older children, teenagers, or very young adults, many riding them in pairs, one driving, the other sitting behind. If you were to step back and just consider the the moped-style ebikes for what they are, that's what they are: electric mopeds or motorcycles on a path designated for pedestrian and cycling use only. My spouse works in rehab and has started seeing injuries from collisions involving these bikes, and they're basically the same as moped or motorcycle injuries. I'm not sure what the solution is, because the "regular" ebikes seem just like bikes to me, and it seems strange to require a license and training for them. But it also seems unacceptable to let motorized vehicles on trails specifically meant to be free of them, because of a loophole in regulations.

yrro 3y ago
For the illegal electric mopeds/motorbikes I ask myself what stops someone driving an illegal petrol moped/motorbike around without type certification/registration/licensing/insurance? Why are electric vehicles somehow able to be sold bypassing those requirements? For the legal "electrically assisted pedal cycles" as they are called in the UK, the solution has to be police actually doing their jobs: when they see the driver of a bike with a battery & cargo casually going >= 20 mph without any effort being put into the pedals (I spot these every single day, nearly all of which are operated by Deliveroo/Just Eat/Uber Eats): Stop them! Confiscate the vehicle! Prosecute the driver for driving an unregistered, non-certified vehicle, uninsured and without a driving license!
- monkeywork 3y ago