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It is not time to subsidize e-bikes. It would be time if they could be ridden safely. Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk

It is not time to subsidize e-bikes. It would be time if they could be ridden safely. Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. Do they belong in bike lanes? Then there is likely to be a pretty large difference in speed between e-bikes and ordinary ones, so that's dangerous too. As the article points out, there is already high demand for e-bikes. So build appropriate infrastructure, and then add subsidies to speed adoption and reduce reliance on automobiles.

felixfbecker 3y ago
Electric bikes are speed-limited by law so that they are actually usually slower than what I'd ride a manual bike when I'm in a hurry. > Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. You could equally ask do cars belong in the streets, along with pedestrians and regular cyclists? They put every other street user at great risk. Yet we subsidize new electric cars with up to $15,000. How many people die in car accidents every year? How many die from bicycles?
- ehnto 3y ago
  Cars very much took over streets, and not that long ago, so it's a fairer question than the current situation makes it feel like. My answer is no, they belong on roads. Streets are for people doing things, roads are for people going longer distances. We don't have a birthright to drive directly into a busy city and park next to the store we want, those streets should be for the people actually using the city areas. This is up to the cities to decide and implement, but any city area that prioritizes peds and other light transport gets a vote in my book. I intentionally say city area not city, so it's understood I mean certain districts like downtowns and CBDs. Suburbia is what it is, you need a car there at this stage.
- sbilstein 3y ago
  Not in an urban area. E-bikes fly through sidewalks, bike lanes, crosswalks in NYC. Threatening pets and people at all times. Bikes were already bad, now it’s just more and faster.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- geophile 3y ago
  I agree with you, and with the commenter who discusses the distinction between streets and roads. Restrictions on where cars can go would be wonderful, for many reasons. But given the current design of cities and suburbs, ebikes are unsafe, and subsidizing them is therefore a mistake. Maybe the way to proceed is to subsidize ebikes in combination with turning over to ebikes some lanes or streets or roads that accommodate cars currently.
lmm 3y ago
> It is not time to subsidize e-bikes. It would be time if they could be ridden safely. Electric cars can't be driven safely, but that hasn't stopped us subsidising them. > Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. Imagine subsidising a form of transport that only endangers the user themselves. That might subtract from vital pedestrian-killing funding.
- geophile 3y ago
  My point is that ebikes do not fit into existing city infrastructure. Ecars do, because they were designed to fit in exactly. They are exactly like cars except for their energy source.
  - lmm 3y ago
    Ebikes, at least in the speed-limited form seen in most countries, are just as much "exactly like bikes except for their energy source". Indeed I'd say they fit far better into existing infrastructure than ecars do, because they don't need specialised chargers.
    - geophile 3y ago
      I don't have the statistics handy. I think the issue turns on average speed. Not maximum possible speed, but average speed in practice. How do these averages compare? If the ebike is a lot faster, then I would expect the differences to cause problems, since both are traveling in the same lanes.
      - lmm 3y ago
        > I think the issue turns on average speed. Not maximum possible speed, but average speed in practice. On what grounds? Since most collisions happen at junctions, I would think the biggest source of potential conflict would be differences in acceleration from a dead stop - but again that's a problem that exists in the same form (if anything, a more severe form) for ecars.
tinyhouse 3y ago
Exactly. People ride them on the sidewalk in many places. Makes them very dangerous for pedestrians.
- gpm 3y ago
  While I absolutely condemn riding ebikes on sidewalks... I suspect that's still safer for pedestrians than cars. Especially cars driven by the kind of asshole that would ride an ebike on a sidewalk.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  it depends on the sidewalk and the road it's on. If I need to take my ebike along a 4 lane road without a bike lane (and sometimes with (paint wont save you)), I might opt to use the sidewalk as long as its not packed full of people. I probably wont travel on it more than i have to and will keep the speed down if there re any people on it at all.
afavour 3y ago
> Then there is likely to be a pretty large difference in speed between e-bikes and ordinary ones, so that's dangerous too. I disagree with that part. Most e-bikes are speed limited to 20mph, a speed plenty of unassisted bikes can achieve if the rider feels like it, and plenty do. Bike lanes already have a variation in speed.
- geophile 3y ago
  Yes, they can, but very few actually do.
timbit42 3y ago
If we took bikes off the roads and gave them their own separated driving lane, they would be a lot safer. To achieve this, take one lane from roads and streets with any number of lanes and dedicate it to bikes with a buffer between it and the car lanes. Two lane roads and streets would become one way.

felixfbecker 3y ago

Electric bikes are speed-limited by law so that they are actually usually slower than what I'd ride a manual bike when I'm in a hurry. > Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. You could equally ask do cars belong in the streets, along with pedestrians and regular cyclists? They put every other street user at great risk. Yet we subsidize new electric cars with up to $15,000. How many people die in car accidents every year? How many die from bicycles?

ehnto 3y ago
Cars very much took over streets, and not that long ago, so it's a fairer question than the current situation makes it feel like. My answer is no, they belong on roads. Streets are for people doing things, roads are for people going longer distances. We don't have a birthright to drive directly into a busy city and park next to the store we want, those streets should be for the people actually using the city areas. This is up to the cities to decide and implement, but any city area that prioritizes peds and other light transport gets a vote in my book. I intentionally say city area not city, so it's understood I mean certain districts like downtowns and CBDs. Suburbia is what it is, you need a car there at this stage.
sbilstein 3y ago
Not in an urban area. E-bikes fly through sidewalks, bike lanes, crosswalks in NYC. Threatening pets and people at all times. Bikes were already bad, now it’s just more and faster.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
geophile 3y ago
I agree with you, and with the commenter who discusses the distinction between streets and roads. Restrictions on where cars can go would be wonderful, for many reasons. But given the current design of cities and suburbs, ebikes are unsafe, and subsidizing them is therefore a mistake. Maybe the way to proceed is to subsidize ebikes in combination with turning over to ebikes some lanes or streets or roads that accommodate cars currently.

lmm 3y ago

> It is not time to subsidize e-bikes. It would be time if they could be ridden safely. Electric cars can't be driven safely, but that hasn't stopped us subsidising them. > Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. Imagine subsidising a form of transport that only endangers the user themselves. That might subtract from vital pedestrian-killing funding.

geophile 3y ago
My point is that ebikes do not fit into existing city infrastructure. Ecars do, because they were designed to fit in exactly. They are exactly like cars except for their energy source.
- lmm 3y ago
  Ebikes, at least in the speed-limited form seen in most countries, are just as much "exactly like bikes except for their energy source". Indeed I'd say they fit far better into existing infrastructure than ecars do, because they don't need specialised chargers.
  - geophile 3y ago
    I don't have the statistics handy. I think the issue turns on average speed. Not maximum possible speed, but average speed in practice. How do these averages compare? If the ebike is a lot faster, then I would expect the differences to cause problems, since both are traveling in the same lanes.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > I think the issue turns on average speed. Not maximum possible speed, but average speed in practice. On what grounds? Since most collisions happen at junctions, I would think the biggest source of potential conflict would be differences in acceleration from a dead stop - but again that's a problem that exists in the same form (if anything, a more severe form) for ecars.

tinyhouse 3y ago

Exactly. People ride them on the sidewalk in many places. Makes them very dangerous for pedestrians.

gpm 3y ago
While I absolutely condemn riding ebikes on sidewalks... I suspect that's still safer for pedestrians than cars. Especially cars driven by the kind of asshole that would ride an ebike on a sidewalk.
sleepybrett 3y ago
it depends on the sidewalk and the road it's on. If I need to take my ebike along a 4 lane road without a bike lane (and sometimes with (paint wont save you)), I might opt to use the sidewalk as long as its not packed full of people. I probably wont travel on it more than i have to and will keep the speed down if there re any people on it at all.

afavour 3y ago

> Then there is likely to be a pretty large difference in speed between e-bikes and ordinary ones, so that's dangerous too. I disagree with that part. Most e-bikes are speed limited to 20mph, a speed plenty of unassisted bikes can achieve if the rider feels like it, and plenty do. Bike lanes already have a variation in speed.

geophile 3y ago
Yes, they can, but very few actually do.

timbit42 3y ago

If we took bikes off the roads and gave them their own separated driving lane, they would be a lot safer. To achieve this, take one lane from roads and streets with any number of lanes and dedicate it to bikes with a buffer between it and the car lanes. Two lane roads and streets would become one way.