4 ms·

> Horse crap, a huge amount of parents genuinely believe violence is a necessity for child rearing (including frequent repetitions of "spare the rod, spoil the

> Horse crap, a huge amount of parents genuinely believe violence is a necessity for child rearing (including frequent repetitions of "spare the rod, spoil the child") to the point that they've even pushed to bring it back into public schools! The effects of corporal punishment are small compared to the effects of molestation and physical abuse. If corporal punishment were our only "issue", we'd be much better off. I wouldn't even classify this under "the very basics".

gls2ro 3y ago
What are you saying here? Corporal punishment is physical and psychological abuse. It is in the title: punishment is a judgement and corporal is the violence. There is no such thing as corporal punishment that is also not an abuse. Maybe there is a scale of it but it is abuse.
- naasking 3y ago
  > It is in the title: punishment is a judgement and corporal is the violence Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? > There is no such thing as corporal punishment that is also not an abuse. That's incorrect, and the legal precedent has been clear on the legality of spanking and the distinction from abuse: https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/can/defining/disc-abuse/ https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/can/defining/disc-abuse/
  - commoner 3y ago
    > Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? Nobody said that. We are saying that corporal punishment is physical abuse. > the legal precedent has been clear on the legality of spanking and the distinction from abuse An action does not need to be illegal in all areas (or illegal at all) to be a form of abuse. Corporal punishment causes negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes in children regardless of whether it is used in an area where it is legal or illegal. It is physical abuse and a poor method of parenting that is detrimental to the children's long-term welfare. > Lifetime spanking/slapping was independently associated with increased odds of mental health disorders, physical health conditions, and defiant behaviors in adolescence after adjusting for childhood adversities and child maltreatment (unadjusted and adjusted odds ratios ranging from 1.29 to 2.19). > These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437211000632 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437211000...
    - naasking 3y ago
      I notice you consistently take data that says that lifetime physical discipline can be detrimental to welfare, and then claim that all physical discipline, no matter how infrequent, is physical abuse that is detrimental to welfare. One does not follow the other.
      - commoner 3y ago
        The data shows that the use of physical discipline is independently associated with negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes. If there are any studies of the same quality that show otherwise, go ahead and post them. Otherwise, your argument is just like saying that infrequent lead exposure may be beneficial because studies only focus on the negative effects of lifetime lead exposure.
        naasking 3y ago
        > Otherwise, your argument is just like saying that infrequent lead exposure may be beneficial because studies only focus on the negative effects of lifetime lead exposure. No, it's saying that infrequent lead exposure is not as harmful as most think, and certainly not as harmful as other environmental pollutants that are more pervasive.
        commoner 3y ago
        Corporal punishment is much more pervasive than molestation and rape, which is why it is being highlighted as a major problem. Lead exposure is actually more harmful than most people think, just like corporal punishment. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/30/one-in-three-children-dangerous-levels-lead-in-blood https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/30/one-in-t...
  - croon 3y ago
    > Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? How is that judgement communicated? Without that information the question is incomplete.
commoner 3y ago
> The effects of corporal punishment are small compared to the effects of molestation and physical abuse. That even worse abuses such as molestation, rape, and murder exist is not a justification for corporal punishment (physical discipline), which has been shown to cause negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes in children. Corporal punishment is a form of physical abuse, considering these negative outcomes. > The Resolution on Physical Discipline of Children By Parents, adopted by APA’s Council of Representatives in February, relies on strong and sophisticated longitudinal research that finds physical discipline does not improve behavior and can lead to emotional, behavioral and academic problems over time, even after race, gender and family socioeconomic status have been statistically controlled. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline
- naasking 3y ago
  > That even worse abuses such as molestation, rape, and murder exist is not a justification for corporal punishment (physical discipline) Fortunately, that's not the argument I made.

gls2ro 3y ago

What are you saying here? Corporal punishment is physical and psychological abuse. It is in the title: punishment is a judgement and corporal is the violence. There is no such thing as corporal punishment that is also not an abuse. Maybe there is a scale of it but it is abuse.

naasking 3y ago
> It is in the title: punishment is a judgement and corporal is the violence Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? > There is no such thing as corporal punishment that is also not an abuse. That's incorrect, and the legal precedent has been clear on the legality of spanking and the distinction from abuse: https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/can/defining/disc-abuse/ https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/can/defining/disc-abuse/
- commoner 3y ago
  > Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? Nobody said that. We are saying that corporal punishment is physical abuse. > the legal precedent has been clear on the legality of spanking and the distinction from abuse An action does not need to be illegal in all areas (or illegal at all) to be a form of abuse. Corporal punishment causes negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes in children regardless of whether it is used in an area where it is legal or illegal. It is physical abuse and a poor method of parenting that is detrimental to the children's long-term welfare. > Lifetime spanking/slapping was independently associated with increased odds of mental health disorders, physical health conditions, and defiant behaviors in adolescence after adjusting for childhood adversities and child maltreatment (unadjusted and adjusted odds ratios ranging from 1.29 to 2.19). > These findings suggest that lifetime spanking/slapping is uniquely associated with harmful mental, physical, and behavioral outcomes in adolescence, and efforts should focus on its prevention. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437211000632 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437211000...
  - naasking 3y ago
    I notice you consistently take data that says that lifetime physical discipline can be detrimental to welfare, and then claim that all physical discipline, no matter how infrequent, is physical abuse that is detrimental to welfare. One does not follow the other.
    - commoner 3y ago
      The data shows that the use of physical discipline is independently associated with negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes. If there are any studies of the same quality that show otherwise, go ahead and post them. Otherwise, your argument is just like saying that infrequent lead exposure may be beneficial because studies only focus on the negative effects of lifetime lead exposure.
      - naasking 3y ago
        > Otherwise, your argument is just like saying that infrequent lead exposure may be beneficial because studies only focus on the negative effects of lifetime lead exposure. No, it's saying that infrequent lead exposure is not as harmful as most think, and certainly not as harmful as other environmental pollutants that are more pervasive.
        commoner 3y ago
        Corporal punishment is much more pervasive than molestation and rape, which is why it is being highlighted as a major problem. Lead exposure is actually more harmful than most people think, just like corporal punishment. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/30/one-in-three-children-dangerous-levels-lead-in-blood https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/30/one-in-t...
- croon 3y ago
  > Are you suggesting that judging your child's actions as wrong is psychological abuse? How is that judgement communicated? Without that information the question is incomplete.

commoner 3y ago

> The effects of corporal punishment are small compared to the effects of molestation and physical abuse. That even worse abuses such as molestation, rape, and murder exist is not a justification for corporal punishment (physical discipline), which has been shown to cause negative emotional, behavioral, and academic outcomes in children. Corporal punishment is a form of physical abuse, considering these negative outcomes. > The Resolution on Physical Discipline of Children By Parents, adopted by APA’s Council of Representatives in February, relies on strong and sophisticated longitudinal research that finds physical discipline does not improve behavior and can lead to emotional, behavioral and academic problems over time, even after race, gender and family socioeconomic status have been statistically controlled. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline

naasking 3y ago
> That even worse abuses such as molestation, rape, and murder exist is not a justification for corporal punishment (physical discipline) Fortunately, that's not the argument I made.