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Can you clarify no 1? What are you if not your thinking and your feeling? I'm not trying to be snarky, i am actually legit curious about how to develop a sense

Can you clarify no 1? What are you if not your thinking and your feeling? I'm not trying to be snarky, i am actually legit curious about how to develop a sense of self that doesn't have to do with, y'know, sensing.

starbugs 3y ago
You are the one who sees (or 'hears') the thoughts and feels the feelings. The reason this distinction makes sense is that, arguably, most if not all of 'your' thoughts and feelings are actually preconditioned from the outside. This lets you disidentify from an outside programming.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  But how do you define yourself outside of thinking and feeling? Even the thought to disidentify is a thought, no? I don't understand.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    The thought 'disidentify' is just a word for describing the process of understanding it. Think about it like this: As long as you believe that you are your thoughts, you are identified with them. They are you. Can you control your thoughts? No? Ok, there's the problem. But you are not your thoughts, actually. You are able to 'hear' your thoughts. If it weren't so, who would be unable to control their thoughts in the thought experiment above? Did you ever walk down the street and suddenly have your mind comment on something you see without you having asked for it? Where did that thought come from? Did you intentionally cause it? Or did it just happen and you recognized it happily (or sadly) talking inside your mind for no good reason? Try the following experiment: Ask yourself what will be your next thought? What happens? If you really are your thoughts, then you should be able to know what the next one will be, no? Edit: You asked how do you define yourself? For me, it's easiest to think of me as the one who thinks or feels, or better "the one who can hear thoughts or feel feelings". Ultimately, I believe this is just another thought that helps deprogramming a conditioning. In reality, your 'self' does not even exist. It's a concept made up by the mind.
  - pjohri 3y ago
    Excellent question, it is a long process to start understanding that you are not your mind. And learning to live in that mode. Lookup talks by Osho if you want to get started.
    - haswell 3y ago
      There are many paths to these insights, and I personally used the "Waking Up" app by Sam Harris. I gravitated to this because I was pretty allergic to anything that looked too spiritual or mystical (due to my own pretty negative religious history). I haven't personally listened to Osho, but if other readers find that the content doesn't resonate, there may be a different packaging that does. I personally needed something strictly secular, and I don't know if that's a factor with his content.
      - pjohri 3y ago
        His content 100% resonates with me, because he talks about the truth. Very few people do. Most people talk about meditation or mindfulness and other prescriptions but not truth. Spirituality, mystical things , religion are all meaningless words.
        haswell 3y ago
        I should clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that he does not resonate with you personally, and meant to direct that at future readers curious about the subject but skeptical about a particular style of delivery. And I agree, meditation and mindfulness are not some ultimate prescription, but a stepping stone.
  - andrei_says_ 3y ago
    By experiencing yourself as something in addition to your thoughts. Think of listening to a talk station 24/7, since you were 2. You have come to see this radio station as your own internal voice - it seems to always be there. Then suddenly someone turns off the radio. Or tells you - hey, this is a radio, notice the hum and its weight and warmth. Or says - listen, there’s silence in the room in which the radio-produced sound exists. Or, “notice, you’re breathing. You just inhaled. Now you exhaled…” There’s an infinite amount of practices evolved to do just that.
  - akomtu 3y ago
    By learning to calmly observe your thoughts and emotions.
    - EatingWithForks 3y ago
      What I don't understand is that the act of observing your own thoughts is still a thoughtful action.
      - Viliam1234 3y ago
        If thinking is like inner speech, then there is also an option to be quiet for a while. You start the act of observation by telling yourself "now I am going to observe", but then you can stop talking. The goal is not to stop thinking forever. Thoughts are useful. The goal is to stop thinking obsessively.
      - akomtu 3y ago
        Thinking is like drawing pictures, and watching those pictures is a different process.
haswell 3y ago
The other answers here are great, and the question that helped me make sense of this was: if I am my thoughts and feelings, then who/what is aware of those thoughts and feelings? But what started to really open this up for me was beginning a morning mindfulness practice for a few minutes/day. This practice trains you to pay close attention to sensations in the body, and eventually to thoughts and feelings, and by paying this close attention, you start to directly experience your thoughts as thoughts, instead of your thoughts as you. Guided meditations that point this out can be really helpful (I used the "Waking Up" app, but there are many resources). Over time and with practice (~10 minutes/day is where I started, and I spend 20 minutes now), my perspective has shifted from being my thoughts, to being the space in which thoughts occur. Gaining this space is extremely helpful if you have the type of brain that generates a lot of negative thoughts, as mine tends to do. It also helps you see and short-circuit certain negative thought patterns as they happen. This has been a fundamental ingredient in accomplishing real habit change. I think some people are more naturally aware of this insight than others, but for me it was a gigantic and helpful perspective shift.
rjbwork 3y ago
This is one of my favorite lectures on this topic. It's a podcast from Sam Harris from a couple of years ago, but I still go back to listen to it every few months. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45SP7Xv_oU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45SP7Xv_oU

starbugs 3y ago

You are the one who sees (or 'hears') the thoughts and feels the feelings. The reason this distinction makes sense is that, arguably, most if not all of 'your' thoughts and feelings are actually preconditioned from the outside. This lets you disidentify from an outside programming.

EatingWithForks 3y ago
But how do you define yourself outside of thinking and feeling? Even the thought to disidentify is a thought, no? I don't understand.
- starbugs 3y ago
  The thought 'disidentify' is just a word for describing the process of understanding it. Think about it like this: As long as you believe that you are your thoughts, you are identified with them. They are you. Can you control your thoughts? No? Ok, there's the problem. But you are not your thoughts, actually. You are able to 'hear' your thoughts. If it weren't so, who would be unable to control their thoughts in the thought experiment above? Did you ever walk down the street and suddenly have your mind comment on something you see without you having asked for it? Where did that thought come from? Did you intentionally cause it? Or did it just happen and you recognized it happily (or sadly) talking inside your mind for no good reason? Try the following experiment: Ask yourself what will be your next thought? What happens? If you really are your thoughts, then you should be able to know what the next one will be, no? Edit: You asked how do you define yourself? For me, it's easiest to think of me as the one who thinks or feels, or better "the one who can hear thoughts or feel feelings". Ultimately, I believe this is just another thought that helps deprogramming a conditioning. In reality, your 'self' does not even exist. It's a concept made up by the mind.
- pjohri 3y ago
  Excellent question, it is a long process to start understanding that you are not your mind. And learning to live in that mode. Lookup talks by Osho if you want to get started.
  - haswell 3y ago
    There are many paths to these insights, and I personally used the "Waking Up" app by Sam Harris. I gravitated to this because I was pretty allergic to anything that looked too spiritual or mystical (due to my own pretty negative religious history). I haven't personally listened to Osho, but if other readers find that the content doesn't resonate, there may be a different packaging that does. I personally needed something strictly secular, and I don't know if that's a factor with his content.
    - pjohri 3y ago
      His content 100% resonates with me, because he talks about the truth. Very few people do. Most people talk about meditation or mindfulness and other prescriptions but not truth. Spirituality, mystical things , religion are all meaningless words.
      - haswell 3y ago
        I should clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that he does not resonate with you personally, and meant to direct that at future readers curious about the subject but skeptical about a particular style of delivery. And I agree, meditation and mindfulness are not some ultimate prescription, but a stepping stone.
- andrei_says_ 3y ago
  By experiencing yourself as something in addition to your thoughts. Think of listening to a talk station 24/7, since you were 2. You have come to see this radio station as your own internal voice - it seems to always be there. Then suddenly someone turns off the radio. Or tells you - hey, this is a radio, notice the hum and its weight and warmth. Or says - listen, there’s silence in the room in which the radio-produced sound exists. Or, “notice, you’re breathing. You just inhaled. Now you exhaled…” There’s an infinite amount of practices evolved to do just that.
- akomtu 3y ago
  By learning to calmly observe your thoughts and emotions.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    What I don't understand is that the act of observing your own thoughts is still a thoughtful action.
    - Viliam1234 3y ago
      If thinking is like inner speech, then there is also an option to be quiet for a while. You start the act of observation by telling yourself "now I am going to observe", but then you can stop talking. The goal is not to stop thinking forever. Thoughts are useful. The goal is to stop thinking obsessively.
    - akomtu 3y ago
      Thinking is like drawing pictures, and watching those pictures is a different process.

haswell 3y ago

The other answers here are great, and the question that helped me make sense of this was: if I am my thoughts and feelings, then who/what is aware of those thoughts and feelings? But what started to really open this up for me was beginning a morning mindfulness practice for a few minutes/day. This practice trains you to pay close attention to sensations in the body, and eventually to thoughts and feelings, and by paying this close attention, you start to directly experience your thoughts as thoughts, instead of your thoughts as you. Guided meditations that point this out can be really helpful (I used the "Waking Up" app, but there are many resources). Over time and with practice (~10 minutes/day is where I started, and I spend 20 minutes now), my perspective has shifted from being my thoughts, to being the space in which thoughts occur. Gaining this space is extremely helpful if you have the type of brain that generates a lot of negative thoughts, as mine tends to do. It also helps you see and short-circuit certain negative thought patterns as they happen. This has been a fundamental ingredient in accomplishing real habit change. I think some people are more naturally aware of this insight than others, but for me it was a gigantic and helpful perspective shift.

rjbwork 3y ago

This is one of my favorite lectures on this topic. It's a podcast from Sam Harris from a couple of years ago, but I still go back to listen to it every few months. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45SP7Xv_oU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45SP7Xv_oU