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I wonder why it is necessary to have all these limits and reservation slots in the first place? In Austria, when you want to go on a hike, you just go. Sure, t

I wonder why it is necessary to have all these limits and reservation slots in the first place? In Austria, when you want to go on a hike, you just go. Sure, there are some popular routes that are crowded, but 99% of our national parks are completely empty. As soon as you can't drive somewhere and it takes a few hours to hike there, it's pretty empty anyway. Are there so many more hikers in the US, or is this about limiting access to the most popular routes?

HDThoreaun 3y ago
99% of national park and forest activities do not require a reservation. It's only for the most popular hikes and river rafting, with some exceptions.
thorncorona 3y ago
Some parks are particularly popular, and a reservation system is needed to minimize impact on trails / the environment.
pxeboot 3y ago
Most of the lotteries/reservations are for cabins, campgrounds, and rafting popular rivers. For day hiking, very few places require a permit.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  There's often a daily park admission fee you pay at the gate. Per person or per car, it varies. Sometimes included with a camping reservation, sometimes not.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    This fee goes to the park itself. Booz allen only gets paid for the lottery system.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      They are also getting paid for every campsite reservation and many "free" permits that are first come first served. One example, the parking lot for Multnomah Falls in the Columbia River Gorge requires a permit that allows you to enter a rest area off the interstate during a specific one hour period that also serves as the parking for the falls. You may then stay as long as you like. The permits are free but I you pay a $2 fee per car to recreation.gov for the privilege. Despite being a highway rest area it is illegal to stop there from Memorial Day to Labor Day without a pre-purchased permit. I generally avoid the area during high season so I have no idea how strictly this is enforced should you ever have an urgent need for a toilet.
- solardev 3y ago
  > For day hiking, very few places require a permit. These days though, even day hiking is increasingly permitted :( I live near the Oregon Cascades, an area that used to be unpermitted but got too popular. A few years ago they introduced a permit system (for both day hikes and overnights), but implemented it terribly... a large % of the permits were released on a single day and were sold out within hours. People ended up hoarding multiple permits for multiple weekends because they couldn't be sure which weekend they could go (or what the weather would be like), then 40% of the permit holders never showed up on their given reservations... so nobody got to go. They've since tweaked the system. https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/16/wilderness-permit-central-cascades-changes/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/16/wilderness-permit-cen... Your point absolutely stands -- that day hike permits are still largely unusual across the entirety of the US public lands systems -- but more and more places are getting so popular that they do require reservations. It's one of the downsides of social systems like TikTok or Alltrails, which improve discoverability but also focus public attention on the few best trails rather than the thousands of "still pretty good" trails.
solardev 3y ago
Yes, it's the "most popular" routes/campsites/activities that are the most impacted, but "most popular" is a moving target. A lot of our public lands become victims of their own successes, especially in the age of Instagram and TikTok. Decades past, nobody but the most adventurous would visit these places and reservations were never an issue. Then, with increased visibility/awareness (starting from things like the American Automobile Association magazines, to TripAdvisor, to these days TikTok and Alltrails) visitation kept going up and up and up and up and the lands and agencies couldn't keep up. This is especially the case with our major parks (Yellowstone, Yosemite, Zion) but even smaller places can become an issue with enough social media exposure: Horseshoe Bend in Arizona: https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/instagram-tourism-booms-horseshoe-bend-national-parks-officials/story?id=64638198 https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/instagram-tourism-booms-hor... Or Muir Woods just outside of San Francisco: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Wildly-popular-Muir-Woods-to-start-requiring-6376513.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Wildly-popular-Muir-W... So places have to try different strategies, including but not limited to lotteries, park-and-ride shuttles, timed reservations, rotating closures, etc. to both enable access but also protect the very resources that people are flocking to see. It's not just a top-down effort either. There are grassroots NGOs dedicated to trying to balance visitation vs preservation, like Leave No Trace (https://lnt.org/ https://lnt.org/) and the Access Fund (https://www.accessfund.org/ https://www.accessfund.org/). It's a hard problem all around... you want people to be able to easily enjoy the lands that their tax dollars pay for, but when there are TOO many people (and tourists, both domestic and international)... it gets crazy.
Karrot_Kream 3y ago
It's just for the popular national parks and it's only about the popular seasons, and a lot of it has to do with motor vehicle traffic. My partner and I ride our bikes to most parks or we visit parks off-peak and we almost never bother with any of this. EDIT: I've always wondered why more private companies don't create shared buses to help backpackers hit the entrance to the park. A lot of the times just getting to the entrance is what makes folks use their cars, and if you could park in a nearby town and take a shuttle in and start your backpacking that would go a long way. I know some parks run shuttles inside the park but I'm talking about a more backpacker/cyclist specific transport just to the entrance to minimize impact on the park itself.
- solardev 3y ago
  Do you ever check before you just show up? There's not enough rangers to go around checking permits on every trail, but if you're unlucky and get caught without a permit when you're supposed to have one, you might have to pay a fine (not the end of the world) but also might get turned around (ruining your vacation plans). And if the same ranger catches you twice on the same trail after turning you around... lol... they tend not to be too happy.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    We don't, but we also check the hike-bike site locations beforehand, grab all the necessary backcountry permits, and also try to hoof it in early to maximize chances of getting a site. Of course since we're on bike we plan a lot more than most visitors in a car (since we plan out water stops, food, clothing changes, etc etc.) We've definitely encountered the occasional ranger but they're usually much friendlier to bikers than drivers in my experience.
    - solardev 3y ago
      That's good to know! Can't wait to try to my first bikepacking trip :)
      - 3y ago
jjav 3y ago
> I wonder why it is necessary to have all these limits and reservation slots in the first place? For one thing it generates a lot of profits for both recreation.gov and (somewhat less) the parks. That's unavoidably going to be a motivation for ever more limits and lotteries. For me that's really soured the idea of going to these places. In the 90s I'd go to any park, show up and hike wherever without any limits, it was great. Now it's hard to be able to ever go, let alone luck into the limited slots.
trailbits 3y ago
Too many public lands in the US are managed like amusement parks instead of nature parks. These places would be less crowded and there would be less need for lotteries and permits if visitors had to make more of an effort to get there and use them. You don't even need to pack a picnic when you can count on a cafe and restaurant in the park. Once you are there and tying up a precious parking spot, you don't have to hike to see the scenery -- you can go into the air conditioned theatre and watch the park movie! Have an ice cream! Don't want to listen to the birds? You can listen to a live band at the lodge instead. Instead of allowing contractors and concessionaires to exploit these unique public treasures, the parks could focus on preservation instead.
- solardev 3y ago
  I'm not sure how it works in other countries -- and I hope I'm not explaining something you already know -- but the US has a LOT of different types of public land designations (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45340.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45340.pdf PDF page 9) and agencies to manage them (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF10585.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF10585.pdf) Some, like the most prominent parts of National Parks, are specifically managed to enable easy access (and also ADA accessibility, like wheelchair-friendly paths). There are also preservation-focused areas, especially but not only Wilderness (our highest form of protection, designated by Congress, prohibits motorized traffic and most buildings, often no use of machines like chainsaws or ATVs, though most will allow pack mules and such). Many multi-use areas (National Forests, BLM land, etc.) also have minimal facilities, often just a dirt lot and maybe a pit toilet if you're lucky. On the other hand, some smaller National Monuments might have no accessible areas EXCEPT for a visitor center and parking lot, usually to protect some extremely limited or fragile resource. The USA is HUGE and many lands are public and/or protected for various reasons, to different goals. Not every trail is a National Park, and not every National Park is there for hiking or backpacking. And it's also not merely a matter of land designation. Crowding can happen even in designated wilderness areas, often the result of a place going viral or being in close proximity to a major city or whatever.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

99% of national park and forest activities do not require a reservation. It's only for the most popular hikes and river rafting, with some exceptions.

thorncorona 3y ago

Some parks are particularly popular, and a reservation system is needed to minimize impact on trails / the environment.

pxeboot 3y ago

Most of the lotteries/reservations are for cabins, campgrounds, and rafting popular rivers. For day hiking, very few places require a permit.

SoftTalker 3y ago
There's often a daily park admission fee you pay at the gate. Per person or per car, it varies. Sometimes included with a camping reservation, sometimes not.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  This fee goes to the park itself. Booz allen only gets paid for the lottery system.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    They are also getting paid for every campsite reservation and many "free" permits that are first come first served. One example, the parking lot for Multnomah Falls in the Columbia River Gorge requires a permit that allows you to enter a rest area off the interstate during a specific one hour period that also serves as the parking for the falls. You may then stay as long as you like. The permits are free but I you pay a $2 fee per car to recreation.gov for the privilege. Despite being a highway rest area it is illegal to stop there from Memorial Day to Labor Day without a pre-purchased permit. I generally avoid the area during high season so I have no idea how strictly this is enforced should you ever have an urgent need for a toilet.
solardev 3y ago
> For day hiking, very few places require a permit. These days though, even day hiking is increasingly permitted :( I live near the Oregon Cascades, an area that used to be unpermitted but got too popular. A few years ago they introduced a permit system (for both day hikes and overnights), but implemented it terribly... a large % of the permits were released on a single day and were sold out within hours. People ended up hoarding multiple permits for multiple weekends because they couldn't be sure which weekend they could go (or what the weather would be like), then 40% of the permit holders never showed up on their given reservations... so nobody got to go. They've since tweaked the system. https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/16/wilderness-permit-central-cascades-changes/ https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/16/wilderness-permit-cen... Your point absolutely stands -- that day hike permits are still largely unusual across the entirety of the US public lands systems -- but more and more places are getting so popular that they do require reservations. It's one of the downsides of social systems like TikTok or Alltrails, which improve discoverability but also focus public attention on the few best trails rather than the thousands of "still pretty good" trails.

solardev 3y ago

Yes, it's the "most popular" routes/campsites/activities that are the most impacted, but "most popular" is a moving target. A lot of our public lands become victims of their own successes, especially in the age of Instagram and TikTok. Decades past, nobody but the most adventurous would visit these places and reservations were never an issue. Then, with increased visibility/awareness (starting from things like the American Automobile Association magazines, to TripAdvisor, to these days TikTok and Alltrails) visitation kept going up and up and up and up and the lands and agencies couldn't keep up. This is especially the case with our major parks (Yellowstone, Yosemite, Zion) but even smaller places can become an issue with enough social media exposure: Horseshoe Bend in Arizona: https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/instagram-tourism-booms-horseshoe-bend-national-parks-officials/story?id=64638198 https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/instagram-tourism-booms-hor... Or Muir Woods just outside of San Francisco: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Wildly-popular-Muir-Woods-to-start-requiring-6376513.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Wildly-popular-Muir-W... So places have to try different strategies, including but not limited to lotteries, park-and-ride shuttles, timed reservations, rotating closures, etc. to both enable access but also protect the very resources that people are flocking to see. It's not just a top-down effort either. There are grassroots NGOs dedicated to trying to balance visitation vs preservation, like Leave No Trace (https://lnt.org/ https://lnt.org/) and the Access Fund (https://www.accessfund.org/ https://www.accessfund.org/). It's a hard problem all around... you want people to be able to easily enjoy the lands that their tax dollars pay for, but when there are TOO many people (and tourists, both domestic and international)... it gets crazy.

Karrot_Kream 3y ago

It's just for the popular national parks and it's only about the popular seasons, and a lot of it has to do with motor vehicle traffic. My partner and I ride our bikes to most parks or we visit parks off-peak and we almost never bother with any of this. EDIT: I've always wondered why more private companies don't create shared buses to help backpackers hit the entrance to the park. A lot of the times just getting to the entrance is what makes folks use their cars, and if you could park in a nearby town and take a shuttle in and start your backpacking that would go a long way. I know some parks run shuttles inside the park but I'm talking about a more backpacker/cyclist specific transport just to the entrance to minimize impact on the park itself.

solardev 3y ago
Do you ever check before you just show up? There's not enough rangers to go around checking permits on every trail, but if you're unlucky and get caught without a permit when you're supposed to have one, you might have to pay a fine (not the end of the world) but also might get turned around (ruining your vacation plans). And if the same ranger catches you twice on the same trail after turning you around... lol... they tend not to be too happy.
- Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  We don't, but we also check the hike-bike site locations beforehand, grab all the necessary backcountry permits, and also try to hoof it in early to maximize chances of getting a site. Of course since we're on bike we plan a lot more than most visitors in a car (since we plan out water stops, food, clothing changes, etc etc.) We've definitely encountered the occasional ranger but they're usually much friendlier to bikers than drivers in my experience.
  - solardev 3y ago
    That's good to know! Can't wait to try to my first bikepacking trip :)
    - 3y ago

jjav 3y ago

> I wonder why it is necessary to have all these limits and reservation slots in the first place? For one thing it generates a lot of profits for both recreation.gov and (somewhat less) the parks. That's unavoidably going to be a motivation for ever more limits and lotteries. For me that's really soured the idea of going to these places. In the 90s I'd go to any park, show up and hike wherever without any limits, it was great. Now it's hard to be able to ever go, let alone luck into the limited slots.

trailbits 3y ago

Too many public lands in the US are managed like amusement parks instead of nature parks. These places would be less crowded and there would be less need for lotteries and permits if visitors had to make more of an effort to get there and use them. You don't even need to pack a picnic when you can count on a cafe and restaurant in the park. Once you are there and tying up a precious parking spot, you don't have to hike to see the scenery -- you can go into the air conditioned theatre and watch the park movie! Have an ice cream! Don't want to listen to the birds? You can listen to a live band at the lodge instead. Instead of allowing contractors and concessionaires to exploit these unique public treasures, the parks could focus on preservation instead.

solardev 3y ago
I'm not sure how it works in other countries -- and I hope I'm not explaining something you already know -- but the US has a LOT of different types of public land designations (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45340.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45340.pdf PDF page 9) and agencies to manage them (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF10585.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF10585.pdf) Some, like the most prominent parts of National Parks, are specifically managed to enable easy access (and also ADA accessibility, like wheelchair-friendly paths). There are also preservation-focused areas, especially but not only Wilderness (our highest form of protection, designated by Congress, prohibits motorized traffic and most buildings, often no use of machines like chainsaws or ATVs, though most will allow pack mules and such). Many multi-use areas (National Forests, BLM land, etc.) also have minimal facilities, often just a dirt lot and maybe a pit toilet if you're lucky. On the other hand, some smaller National Monuments might have no accessible areas EXCEPT for a visitor center and parking lot, usually to protect some extremely limited or fragile resource. The USA is HUGE and many lands are public and/or protected for various reasons, to different goals. Not every trail is a National Park, and not every National Park is there for hiking or backpacking. And it's also not merely a matter of land designation. Crowding can happen even in designated wilderness areas, often the result of a place going viral or being in close proximity to a major city or whatever.