3 ms·

I have no perspective on the legality, but this sounds like a corrupt contract. The details from the article that stand out to me: * The US Government paid no

I have no perspective on the legality, but this sounds like a corrupt contract. The details from the article that stand out to me: * The US Government paid nothing for Recreation.gov, and the site is instead funded by fees charged on the platform, that are passed through to the site's operator, Booz Allen * The amount generated by those fees and paid to Booz Allen is not publically disclosed. * There are times when government agencies (like the NPS) offer free tickets (aka, timed entry to popular national parks), and Booz Allen still tacks on a fee. * Similarly, when you enter a nonrefundable lottery for popular permits (climbing Mt. Whitney, rafting the Salmon, etc.) the $6 fee you pay to enter doesn't go to, say, conservation efforts in those areas, but goes straight to Booz Allen. On princple, I don't mind user-fees being attached to some activities in public lands. But this payment structure seems designed to defraud the American public. Certainly, the contractor is providing value by delivering online reservation systems, and that costs money, but they should not be incentivized to charge fees that go to them, not the public lands. I hope the lawsuit succeeds in gaining class action status, and prevents other government websites from being structured this way.

SoftTalker 3y ago
They aren't called Beltway Bandits for nothing, and Booz-Allen is one of the top firms in that arena. Their bread and butter is milking federal contracts for every penny they can.
- dawnerd 3y ago
  Delaware north is another one of these corrupt companies milking taxpayers. They’re not as bad I don’t think but still…
sidewndr46 3y ago
I do. If public funds used to acquire public land aren't enough to make it accessible to the public, that's fine. Just seal it off and cart anyone on it off to jail. It shouldn't be a playground for the rich, partially funded by the taxpayer.
- atourgates 3y ago
  I think we're a long way from that right now. There are literally millions of places you can camp and recreated for free on public lands in the United States. When the fees do exist, they're for particularly popular areas (National Parks) or cost-intensive uses (campgrounds where you can plug in your RV or take a hot shower). Campground fees of between $5-30/night are hardly making public lands a "playground for the rich." Same for the $80 (cheaper for seniors, and free for the disabled or veterans) annual pass that'll get you and your family into every National Park into the country, as well as any other federally managed public lands that charge an entry fee. There are certainly important issues[1] about equity in access to public lands, but we're pretty far from your "plaground for the rich" scenario. [1] https://www.tpl.org/our-mission/equity https://www.tpl.org/our-mission/equity
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    You're talking about national parks, I'm concerned about Army Corps of Engineering areas designated for recreation. There is no way to guarantee access at this point. You have to buy the pass from recreation.gov, then show up, then find out the park is 'full'. I have no idea what this means, there are no published limits, and I am still a valid pass holder. The website is basically a scam because you can't enter if you don't have a pass. But buying a pass doesn't guarantee access. I can't make a reservation either, I have to get there in line (after buying the pass online) and hope I can get early enough before the park is 'full'. This basically means the park is off limits.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    Yep I just skip the campgrounds, and drive up some gravel roads until I find a good spot. Most of the time nobody else is around. The campsites are bigger, and you're way more out in the wilderness. You don't really even have to go that far most of the time... Hell I have found amazing isolated campsites only a few miles off I-90 just outside Seattle.
lacker 3y ago
The nice thing about fees is that if the website doesn't work, then Booz Allen doesn't make any money. I know one local campsite that doesn't use recreation.gov; you have to call them to make a reservation. Often nobody picks up the phone. Another one you have to email them, and they might get back to you weeks later. Please, let Booz Allen have my $6 fee, in return for actually running a reservation service.
hnboredhn 3y ago
Agreed. In particular the fees paid to Booz Allen should be disclosed. Looking back earlier this year I paid $40 for two cave tours of a national park through the site. There are no listed fees. It is a reasonable price for the tour and the site was pretty easy to use, but now I am curious what the cut is for the park. Definitely am not against a private company getting paid to manage reservations but seems reasonable that the info is disclosed.

SoftTalker 3y ago

They aren't called Beltway Bandits for nothing, and Booz-Allen is one of the top firms in that arena. Their bread and butter is milking federal contracts for every penny they can.

dawnerd 3y ago
Delaware north is another one of these corrupt companies milking taxpayers. They’re not as bad I don’t think but still…

sidewndr46 3y ago

I do. If public funds used to acquire public land aren't enough to make it accessible to the public, that's fine. Just seal it off and cart anyone on it off to jail. It shouldn't be a playground for the rich, partially funded by the taxpayer.

atourgates 3y ago
I think we're a long way from that right now. There are literally millions of places you can camp and recreated for free on public lands in the United States. When the fees do exist, they're for particularly popular areas (National Parks) or cost-intensive uses (campgrounds where you can plug in your RV or take a hot shower). Campground fees of between $5-30/night are hardly making public lands a "playground for the rich." Same for the $80 (cheaper for seniors, and free for the disabled or veterans) annual pass that'll get you and your family into every National Park into the country, as well as any other federally managed public lands that charge an entry fee. There are certainly important issues[1] about equity in access to public lands, but we're pretty far from your "plaground for the rich" scenario. [1] https://www.tpl.org/our-mission/equity https://www.tpl.org/our-mission/equity
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  You're talking about national parks, I'm concerned about Army Corps of Engineering areas designated for recreation. There is no way to guarantee access at this point. You have to buy the pass from recreation.gov, then show up, then find out the park is 'full'. I have no idea what this means, there are no published limits, and I am still a valid pass holder. The website is basically a scam because you can't enter if you don't have a pass. But buying a pass doesn't guarantee access. I can't make a reservation either, I have to get there in line (after buying the pass online) and hope I can get early enough before the park is 'full'. This basically means the park is off limits.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  Yep I just skip the campgrounds, and drive up some gravel roads until I find a good spot. Most of the time nobody else is around. The campsites are bigger, and you're way more out in the wilderness. You don't really even have to go that far most of the time... Hell I have found amazing isolated campsites only a few miles off I-90 just outside Seattle.

lacker 3y ago

The nice thing about fees is that if the website doesn't work, then Booz Allen doesn't make any money. I know one local campsite that doesn't use recreation.gov; you have to call them to make a reservation. Often nobody picks up the phone. Another one you have to email them, and they might get back to you weeks later. Please, let Booz Allen have my $6 fee, in return for actually running a reservation service.

hnboredhn 3y ago

Agreed. In particular the fees paid to Booz Allen should be disclosed. Looking back earlier this year I paid $40 for two cave tours of a national park through the site. There are no listed fees. It is a reasonable price for the tour and the site was pretty easy to use, but now I am curious what the cut is for the park. Definitely am not against a private company getting paid to manage reservations but seems reasonable that the info is disclosed.