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I agree with much of this especially the lack of zero sum games, but a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues. We’re literally commen

I agree with much of this especially the lack of zero sum games, but a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues. We’re literally commenting on an article talking about how we still treat boys and men like they don’t or shouldn’t have emotions and thus don’t need emotional support and all the top comments are about how attacking toxic masculinity has gone too far? Like the problem here is seeing some sort of bio-essentialism or just a form of masculinity that is unhelpful, and unhealthy in very much the kinda way that some feminist thinkers believed for a long time. Yes, I very much don’t like rad fems for a lot of reasons, but for every one of them hurting society there are 10 women and men afraid society is going soft. Do you know what the most popular source of news in this country is? Have you seen polling.

haswell 3y ago
> a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues Is it? This doesn't seem like an obvious conclusion to me, and isn't this just another way to frame "zero sum" thinking? i.e. there's only so much oxygen, and it's better used over there on that other issue instead of here on this issue, with the implication being that using oxygen here detracts from other things over there. Another way to frame this is that those other issues aren't seeing the desired progress for the same reasons these negative outcomes are starting to emerge: current strategy/tactics are not working effectively, and/or we aren't looking at a big enough picture. If this is true, conversations like this are necessary to address both, and to course correct as needed. A conversation about one should happen in the context of the bigger picture, and becomes a conversation about the other, raising awareness and moving the dialogue forward across both fronts. I should be clear that I'm not taking a hard stance about this, but challenging the idea that we should steer clear of certain lines of discussion. I don't think we make progress until we expand our thinking to include an honest evaluation of actions taken and their effects (desired or otherwise), and narrowing the field of "acceptable" exploration seems like it can only be counterproductive. > Do you know what the most popular source of news in this country is? Have you seen polling. Not recently. What do you feel that these pieces of information indicate?
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Millions of young men are knee deep in the "incel" and "manosphere" community. This community is transparently hateful towards women, views them as objects who have no free will and follow very simple rules, and they only exist so you can sleep with them and then they parasite off you forever. Where is this supposed man hating community?

haswell 3y ago

> a problem is this conversation takes oxogen away from bigger issues Is it? This doesn't seem like an obvious conclusion to me, and isn't this just another way to frame "zero sum" thinking? i.e. there's only so much oxygen, and it's better used over there on that other issue instead of here on this issue, with the implication being that using oxygen here detracts from other things over there. Another way to frame this is that those other issues aren't seeing the desired progress for the same reasons these negative outcomes are starting to emerge: current strategy/tactics are not working effectively, and/or we aren't looking at a big enough picture. If this is true, conversations like this are necessary to address both, and to course correct as needed. A conversation about one should happen in the context of the bigger picture, and becomes a conversation about the other, raising awareness and moving the dialogue forward across both fronts. I should be clear that I'm not taking a hard stance about this, but challenging the idea that we should steer clear of certain lines of discussion. I don't think we make progress until we expand our thinking to include an honest evaluation of actions taken and their effects (desired or otherwise), and narrowing the field of "acceptable" exploration seems like it can only be counterproductive. > Do you know what the most popular source of news in this country is? Have you seen polling. Not recently. What do you feel that these pieces of information indicate?

mrguyorama 3y ago
Millions of young men are knee deep in the "incel" and "manosphere" community. This community is transparently hateful towards women, views them as objects who have no free will and follow very simple rules, and they only exist so you can sleep with them and then they parasite off you forever. Where is this supposed man hating community?