6 ms·

That sounds like a very one-sided argument. If you want a functioning government you're going to need money to pay for it, and if you don't have sales tax it me

That sounds like a very one-sided argument. If you want a functioning government you're going to need money to pay for it, and if you don't have sales tax it means you have to get it elsewhere; it doesn't "make it go away". If the argument was supposed to be 'a smarter, well-functioning tax system that pays for government facilities' then say that. But such a statement would need some references to back it up.

rootusrootus 3y ago
Sales tax is an abomination. I walk into the store, pick something off the the shelf that says it costs $9.99, but I can't actually buy it for that. Argh.
- sircastor 3y ago
  I understand in some places in Europe (for instance) the price on the shelf is the price including tax. This is not a hard problem to solve. I think Sales tax for most things is probably the fairest means of taxation. It can be applied equally between the wealthy and the poor. It is applied when you choose to get something, rather than arbitrarily before or after. It tends to be applied evenly whether you're buying a box of chocolates or a flatscreen TV.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    It's pretty much only the USA where the prices on the shelves aren't the final price with taxes. Sales tax (and VAT) is regressive since poor people spend a much larger portion of their income on goods subject to sales tax.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      Meh, you could lower taxes on inferior goods and increase them on luxury goods to compensate. Income taxes are pure evil as they are unavoidable and maximally painful. As an Oregonian, federal+state income tax means I don't make any money I get to keep until late April. I think about killing myself every year because of it.
      - ksherlock 3y ago
        In 1991, a 10% federal luxury tax went into effect. Result: rich people stopped buying yachts and planes. Revenue raised was a rounding error (less than $13 million in a year and a half), luxury industries were decimated, and the tax was repealed 2 years later.
        sircastor 3y ago
        So the lesson learned here that very wealthy people are more interested in not paying taxes than they are in owning their own planes and yachts? I understand that $2.2 million is more than $2 million, but I find it kind of baffling that people spending that kind of money on that kind of thing are price sensitive.
        no_wizard 3y ago
        Yachts and luxury boats yes[0] however it was effective on cars until 2002[1] however they still managed to collect $3.94 billion off the luxury tax by 2000[3] One could argue that if they had the stones to keep the tax in place, eventually people relent and start purchasing high ticket items again, and it could have compounded to make a significant difference by now [0]: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-10-07-1993280118-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-10-07-19932801... [1]: https://archive.is/pTR5E https://archive.is/pTR5E [3]: https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20020307_RS20314_f70eb82cf9b47bfb780bd7a057e8c6fe96d48eae.pdf https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20020307_RS20314_f70eb8...
  - fomine3 3y ago
    More importantly, sales tax is equally applied to foreign companies. I'm theoretically a fan of sales tax since it's very fair tax, but very unpopular for other reason (bad for economy). I think average people (no way to avoid tax) should support sales tax for fairness. Negative income tax for equality.
  - throwawaymobule 3y ago
    The EU has a thing called the clear pricing directive, which mandates all normal taxes be included. (doesn't vibe with laws in 'invitation to treat' countries, but has the same effect) Still seen pfand deposits charged extra in Germany though.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  That has nothing to do with the existence of a sales tax. That has to do with the merchant not wanting to show a price label inclusive of all taxes. There could be a law requiring merchants to display a final price, but I have yet to see a jurisdiction in the US with a law like that so I presume it is not a politically popular enough of an issue.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    I hate the argument that it would be too hard on the merchant to post proper price tags, there are too many different taxes to account for and so on. Wait a minute, the register/POS figures it out just fine...
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      I have never heard of that. The argument is usually if merchant A advertises prices excluding taxes, and merchant B advertises prices including taxes, then merchant B will risk losing out on some customers who go to merchant A because they think buying from merchant A will cost less. On the internet, taxes are based on shipping address, so there I think it would be impossible for a merchant to show tax inclusive price unless the buyer enters a shipping address first.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      The POS figures it out because it likely has a subscription to a sales tax calculation service like Avalara. US sales taxes are frightfully complicated and change constantly, compliance is not optional, and ignorance is no excuse. Local/state politicians can raise or lower taxes on all sorts of products with conditions attached for fun / electability. www.accuratetax.com/blog/top-10-weirdest-sales-tax-laws/
eldritch_4ier 3y ago
It isn't all or nothing. Imagine the government we could have if we all paid 90% in taxes - except I don't want that. I don't even want the kind of government that needs a budget of 40% of my income. If you live in a rural area, the government needs a budget to repair infra and run a few programs, it doesn't need the budget of NYC. Likewise, a government that lacks a sales tax mechanism doesn't "need to get the money elsewhere", it can simply go without and adjust it's services accordingly.
- anon291 3y ago
  Well my county raised it's property taxes and now can't spend the money so is offering opt in discounts to those in the know (i.e. the well connected). Completely perverse misappropriation of funds
teawrecks 3y ago
Sales tax disproportionately impacts the lower class. If I had the choice between no income tax vs no sales tax, I'd take no sales tax.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  It only does so if the sales tax itself is regressive. The entire point of excise taxes is to be avoidable through conscious consumption. Heavy sales taxes on luxury goods are better than income taxes because it ensures anyone can avoid them by not spending but also ensures luxury good consumption merits disproportionate societal funding.
  - lionelholt 3y ago
    Taxing FOOD is always regressive.

rootusrootus 3y ago

Sales tax is an abomination. I walk into the store, pick something off the the shelf that says it costs $9.99, but I can't actually buy it for that. Argh.

sircastor 3y ago
I understand in some places in Europe (for instance) the price on the shelf is the price including tax. This is not a hard problem to solve. I think Sales tax for most things is probably the fairest means of taxation. It can be applied equally between the wealthy and the poor. It is applied when you choose to get something, rather than arbitrarily before or after. It tends to be applied evenly whether you're buying a box of chocolates or a flatscreen TV.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  It's pretty much only the USA where the prices on the shelves aren't the final price with taxes. Sales tax (and VAT) is regressive since poor people spend a much larger portion of their income on goods subject to sales tax.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    Meh, you could lower taxes on inferior goods and increase them on luxury goods to compensate. Income taxes are pure evil as they are unavoidable and maximally painful. As an Oregonian, federal+state income tax means I don't make any money I get to keep until late April. I think about killing myself every year because of it.
    - ksherlock 3y ago
      In 1991, a 10% federal luxury tax went into effect. Result: rich people stopped buying yachts and planes. Revenue raised was a rounding error (less than $13 million in a year and a half), luxury industries were decimated, and the tax was repealed 2 years later.
      - sircastor 3y ago
        So the lesson learned here that very wealthy people are more interested in not paying taxes than they are in owning their own planes and yachts? I understand that $2.2 million is more than $2 million, but I find it kind of baffling that people spending that kind of money on that kind of thing are price sensitive.
      - no_wizard 3y ago
        Yachts and luxury boats yes[0] however it was effective on cars until 2002[1] however they still managed to collect $3.94 billion off the luxury tax by 2000[3] One could argue that if they had the stones to keep the tax in place, eventually people relent and start purchasing high ticket items again, and it could have compounded to make a significant difference by now [0]: https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-10-07-1993280118-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-10-07-19932801... [1]: https://archive.is/pTR5E https://archive.is/pTR5E [3]: https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20020307_RS20314_f70eb82cf9b47bfb780bd7a057e8c6fe96d48eae.pdf https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20020307_RS20314_f70eb8...
- fomine3 3y ago
  More importantly, sales tax is equally applied to foreign companies. I'm theoretically a fan of sales tax since it's very fair tax, but very unpopular for other reason (bad for economy). I think average people (no way to avoid tax) should support sales tax for fairness. Negative income tax for equality.
- throwawaymobule 3y ago
  The EU has a thing called the clear pricing directive, which mandates all normal taxes be included. (doesn't vibe with laws in 'invitation to treat' countries, but has the same effect) Still seen pfand deposits charged extra in Germany though.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
That has nothing to do with the existence of a sales tax. That has to do with the merchant not wanting to show a price label inclusive of all taxes. There could be a law requiring merchants to display a final price, but I have yet to see a jurisdiction in the US with a law like that so I presume it is not a politically popular enough of an issue.
- Arrath 3y ago
  I hate the argument that it would be too hard on the merchant to post proper price tags, there are too many different taxes to account for and so on. Wait a minute, the register/POS figures it out just fine...
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    I have never heard of that. The argument is usually if merchant A advertises prices excluding taxes, and merchant B advertises prices including taxes, then merchant B will risk losing out on some customers who go to merchant A because they think buying from merchant A will cost less. On the internet, taxes are based on shipping address, so there I think it would be impossible for a merchant to show tax inclusive price unless the buyer enters a shipping address first.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    The POS figures it out because it likely has a subscription to a sales tax calculation service like Avalara. US sales taxes are frightfully complicated and change constantly, compliance is not optional, and ignorance is no excuse. Local/state politicians can raise or lower taxes on all sorts of products with conditions attached for fun / electability. www.accuratetax.com/blog/top-10-weirdest-sales-tax-laws/

eldritch_4ier 3y ago

It isn't all or nothing. Imagine the government we could have if we all paid 90% in taxes - except I don't want that. I don't even want the kind of government that needs a budget of 40% of my income. If you live in a rural area, the government needs a budget to repair infra and run a few programs, it doesn't need the budget of NYC. Likewise, a government that lacks a sales tax mechanism doesn't "need to get the money elsewhere", it can simply go without and adjust it's services accordingly.

anon291 3y ago
Well my county raised it's property taxes and now can't spend the money so is offering opt in discounts to those in the know (i.e. the well connected). Completely perverse misappropriation of funds

teawrecks 3y ago

Sales tax disproportionately impacts the lower class. If I had the choice between no income tax vs no sales tax, I'd take no sales tax.

hellojesus 3y ago
It only does so if the sales tax itself is regressive. The entire point of excise taxes is to be avoidable through conscious consumption. Heavy sales taxes on luxury goods are better than income taxes because it ensures anyone can avoid them by not spending but also ensures luxury good consumption merits disproportionate societal funding.
- lionelholt 3y ago
  Taxing FOOD is always regressive.