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Remember the days people thought they could build everything in UML diagrams, and have the code essentially be generated or trivially written from there? Fast

by jdlyga 3y ago

Remember the days people thought they could build everything in UML diagrams, and have the code essentially be generated or trivially written from there? Fast forward to 2023 and we're generating UML diagrams from C++ code because it's easier. I love this.

intelVISA 3y ago
Not sure what cursed C++ you've seen but UML is easily 100x worse. There may be a few hundred good C++ programmers around but nobody can grok UML, if somebody says they can: they're a liar.
- rewmie 3y ago
  > Not sure what cursed C++ you've seen but UML is easily 100x worse. I don't know what UML you've seen, but the one I typically see only expresses high level details and is created to convey the important details, and therefore is trivially simple to understand.
secondcoming 3y ago
UML... the only pictures that _don't_ paint a thousand words!
ok123456 3y ago
This is why code bases from the Java 1.4 days are so unwieldy.
DesiLurker 3y ago
I'd bet with GPT-XX based code generation this might UML sequence diagrams may make a resurgence. its at least good to run some kind of automated 'design lint' to run even if just to ensure a new feature or commit has not broken the high level assumptions/state machine. The codebase I work in I definitely could use something like this regularly.
- massifist 3y ago
  That's funny, I was just thinking this the other day, because there was another HN thread that seemed largely critical of UML's legacy. I remember being a little surprised (with all the GPT craze) that no one had suggested a possible resurgence of UML (or something with similar features) for directing code generation.
  - evanmays 3y ago
    learning "true" UML seems like too much overhead. Perhaps something more flexible in the direction of ink and switch's programmable ink would be easier to pick up https://www.inkandswitch.com/inkbase/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/inkbase/
nofunsir 3y ago
The only reason UML didn't pan out was because it isn't code, and if it's not code, software engineers don't want to do it because software engineers are lazy when it comes to things that are neither code nor one-step-away-from-code tasks. They will go build a million different things instead of documenting. As a consequence, they lose their engineering title and get called developers. UML works. One can lead a horse to water... just like one can stand up ALL of the top, fully-functional UML tools for a software team at what used to be a performant defense contractor, and have literally ZERO people use it. Same with system engineers and commitment. Requirements work. Model driven time wasting doesn't.
rewmie 3y ago
> Remember the days people thought they could build everything in UML diagrams, and have the code essentially be generated or trivially written from there? Those days were a decade ago, and everyone with a license to software like Enterprise Architect did that already with a click of a button. Even before that this was at the reach of everyone with FLOSS tools like Umbrella. What exactly was your point? > Fast forward to 2023 and we're generating UML diagrams from C++ code because it's easier. I love this. You missed the whole point of this tool. This tool is ideal for those of us who work on legacy projects and want a high level view of the project structure to make it easier to get a feel of the project.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > This tool is ideal for those of us who work on legacy projects and want a high level view of the project structure to make it easier to get a feel of the project. Which is anyone more than few months into any project developed by multiple people. I continue to be amazed at how our entire field claims to consider code readability paramount, and yet invests approximately zero effort into making codebases legible.

by jdlyga 3y ago

intelVISA 3y ago

Not sure what cursed C++ you've seen but UML is easily 100x worse. There may be a few hundred good C++ programmers around but nobody can grok UML, if somebody says they can: they're a liar.

rewmie 3y ago
> Not sure what cursed C++ you've seen but UML is easily 100x worse. I don't know what UML you've seen, but the one I typically see only expresses high level details and is created to convey the important details, and therefore is trivially simple to understand.

secondcoming 3y ago

UML... the only pictures that _don't_ paint a thousand words!

ok123456 3y ago

This is why code bases from the Java 1.4 days are so unwieldy.

DesiLurker 3y ago

I'd bet with GPT-XX based code generation this might UML sequence diagrams may make a resurgence. its at least good to run some kind of automated 'design lint' to run even if just to ensure a new feature or commit has not broken the high level assumptions/state machine. The codebase I work in I definitely could use something like this regularly.

massifist 3y ago
That's funny, I was just thinking this the other day, because there was another HN thread that seemed largely critical of UML's legacy. I remember being a little surprised (with all the GPT craze) that no one had suggested a possible resurgence of UML (or something with similar features) for directing code generation.
- evanmays 3y ago
  learning "true" UML seems like too much overhead. Perhaps something more flexible in the direction of ink and switch's programmable ink would be easier to pick up https://www.inkandswitch.com/inkbase/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/inkbase/

nofunsir 3y ago

The only reason UML didn't pan out was because it isn't code, and if it's not code, software engineers don't want to do it because software engineers are lazy when it comes to things that are neither code nor one-step-away-from-code tasks. They will go build a million different things instead of documenting. As a consequence, they lose their engineering title and get called developers. UML works. One can lead a horse to water... just like one can stand up ALL of the top, fully-functional UML tools for a software team at what used to be a performant defense contractor, and have literally ZERO people use it. Same with system engineers and commitment. Requirements work. Model driven time wasting doesn't.

rewmie 3y ago

> Remember the days people thought they could build everything in UML diagrams, and have the code essentially be generated or trivially written from there? Those days were a decade ago, and everyone with a license to software like Enterprise Architect did that already with a click of a button. Even before that this was at the reach of everyone with FLOSS tools like Umbrella. What exactly was your point? > Fast forward to 2023 and we're generating UML diagrams from C++ code because it's easier. I love this. You missed the whole point of this tool. This tool is ideal for those of us who work on legacy projects and want a high level view of the project structure to make it easier to get a feel of the project.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> This tool is ideal for those of us who work on legacy projects and want a high level view of the project structure to make it easier to get a feel of the project. Which is anyone more than few months into any project developed by multiple people. I continue to be amazed at how our entire field claims to consider code readability paramount, and yet invests approximately zero effort into making codebases legible.