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Enforcement is not the solution because it requires constant vigilance. Road design is because you can build the road in a way that brings about the speed/safet

Enforcement is not the solution because it requires constant vigilance. Road design is because you can build the road in a way that brings about the speed/safety envelope you desire, and then it always works correctly whether anyone is monitoring it or not.

brightstep 3y ago
It's always amazing to me how on this engineering-heavy forum, so many users fail to recognize the benefit some simple engineering can deliver.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Well because the roads are what they are, and "reengineering" them to be something else would take years, would be disruptive, and cost millions. So at best you'll get change when the road needs to be rebuilt anyway, because it's worn out.
  - berkes 3y ago
    Roads are re-done constantly. I'm certain you passed a construction site in the last week of driving around - and I am certain without knowing your situation or where you live. Cities and communities have massive budgets to just maintain infrastructure. Each such moment is one where small incremental improvements can be implemented. When a road from 2009 is re-done in 2024, govts can easily enforce that it must adhere to the 2020 guidelines. Each time a line is re-painted, it can be re-painted to increase safety. Each time a curb or bollard is fixed, it can be fixed to protect pedestrians just a bit better. etc. Yes, it takes ages. But infrastructure is never finished it's a constant evolution of small steps. It's trivial and cheap (as in: free) to make those steps in the direction of more safety. All that is needed is a will do to so...
  - Tiktaalik 3y ago
    Not really. You can make a new protected bike lane by just throwing a bunch of jersey barriers on the side of a road. It costs (in relative transportation cost terms) almost nothing. These sort of things would instantly make the roads dramatically safer. The only reason this isn't done isn't due to cost, but due to political opposition to having any amount of road space removed from exclusive car use.
- pas 3y ago
  how is setting up a few cameras and issuing serious tickets to idiots not an engineering solution? obviously it's not a long-term one, as the only real one is to offer effective alternative to all this constant mandatory carmageddon by having walkable/bikeable cities, blablabla.
n8cpdx 3y ago
Although I agree in general, enforcement is a reasonable band-aid to save lives while waiting for the entire road system to be re-engineered. The engineering explanation fails to account for the major change from pre- to post- 2020. The road design didn’t change, but clearly driving behavior did. Strong Towns says it’s because roads are less congested now, but I’ve seen plenty of aggressive, reckless driving regardless of congestion level (it seems some people are frustrated by it and act out).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
asciimov 3y ago
Reckless drivers will do their thing regardless of road design.
- pastage 3y ago
  Except they cant kill as effectivly whit a good road design..
flutas 3y ago
I honestly think it's a "do both" issue. We seriously need to radically re-engineer most roads around me, but the police also really need to step up enforcement. Before 2020 I could count the number of cars with either no plates or expired temp plates on one hand, since 2020 the number of cars with no plates is crazy, and the number of cars with months expired temp tags is just insane. That also tells me those cars don't have insurance, since I don't know of any insurance that will actually cover any claims you have with no valid registration. https://www.thv11.com/article/traffic/arkansas-has-27000-cars-with-expired-temporary-tags/91-e42383a7-0e88-48fc-b273-3a29f8c2e0b1 https://www.thv11.com/article/traffic/arkansas-has-27000-car... Even crazier to me, it looks like California is going to exact opposite direction and making it something you can't be pulled over for. https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB50/id/2813949 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB50/id/2813949
- oezi 3y ago
  Why do you need to get pulled over for this? In Europe you will just get a letter with your fine.
  - strix_varius 3y ago
    What? Without pulling you over, how would they know who you are in order to mail you a fine? The point of the plate is to identify the car, after all. Otherwise, you're just an anonymous moving 2-ton hunk of metal.
    - oezi 3y ago
      If something is wrong with the car, the owner of the car gets the fine. The owner of the car is on file. If somebody uses the car on the owner's behalf and the fine is tied to the driver the fine must be forwarded by the owner to this person.
      - strix_varius 3y ago
        And since the issue we're discussing is missing a license plate, how do you propose identifying the owner of the car, in order to fine them, without pulling the car over?
Tiktaalik 3y ago
We need automatic enforcement via speed cameras and such, but whenever these are brought in, the car lobby moans about how it's a "cash grab" and not about saving people's lives.

brightstep 3y ago

It's always amazing to me how on this engineering-heavy forum, so many users fail to recognize the benefit some simple engineering can deliver.

SoftTalker 3y ago
Well because the roads are what they are, and "reengineering" them to be something else would take years, would be disruptive, and cost millions. So at best you'll get change when the road needs to be rebuilt anyway, because it's worn out.
- berkes 3y ago
  Roads are re-done constantly. I'm certain you passed a construction site in the last week of driving around - and I am certain without knowing your situation or where you live. Cities and communities have massive budgets to just maintain infrastructure. Each such moment is one where small incremental improvements can be implemented. When a road from 2009 is re-done in 2024, govts can easily enforce that it must adhere to the 2020 guidelines. Each time a line is re-painted, it can be re-painted to increase safety. Each time a curb or bollard is fixed, it can be fixed to protect pedestrians just a bit better. etc. Yes, it takes ages. But infrastructure is never finished it's a constant evolution of small steps. It's trivial and cheap (as in: free) to make those steps in the direction of more safety. All that is needed is a will do to so...
- Tiktaalik 3y ago
  Not really. You can make a new protected bike lane by just throwing a bunch of jersey barriers on the side of a road. It costs (in relative transportation cost terms) almost nothing. These sort of things would instantly make the roads dramatically safer. The only reason this isn't done isn't due to cost, but due to political opposition to having any amount of road space removed from exclusive car use.
pas 3y ago
how is setting up a few cameras and issuing serious tickets to idiots not an engineering solution? obviously it's not a long-term one, as the only real one is to offer effective alternative to all this constant mandatory carmageddon by having walkable/bikeable cities, blablabla.

n8cpdx 3y ago

Although I agree in general, enforcement is a reasonable band-aid to save lives while waiting for the entire road system to be re-engineered. The engineering explanation fails to account for the major change from pre- to post- 2020. The road design didn’t change, but clearly driving behavior did. Strong Towns says it’s because roads are less congested now, but I’ve seen plenty of aggressive, reckless driving regardless of congestion level (it seems some people are frustrated by it and act out).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

asciimov 3y ago

Reckless drivers will do their thing regardless of road design.

pastage 3y ago
Except they cant kill as effectivly whit a good road design..

flutas 3y ago

I honestly think it's a "do both" issue. We seriously need to radically re-engineer most roads around me, but the police also really need to step up enforcement. Before 2020 I could count the number of cars with either no plates or expired temp plates on one hand, since 2020 the number of cars with no plates is crazy, and the number of cars with months expired temp tags is just insane. That also tells me those cars don't have insurance, since I don't know of any insurance that will actually cover any claims you have with no valid registration. https://www.thv11.com/article/traffic/arkansas-has-27000-cars-with-expired-temporary-tags/91-e42383a7-0e88-48fc-b273-3a29f8c2e0b1 https://www.thv11.com/article/traffic/arkansas-has-27000-car... Even crazier to me, it looks like California is going to exact opposite direction and making it something you can't be pulled over for. https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB50/id/2813949 https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB50/id/2813949

oezi 3y ago
Why do you need to get pulled over for this? In Europe you will just get a letter with your fine.
- strix_varius 3y ago
  What? Without pulling you over, how would they know who you are in order to mail you a fine? The point of the plate is to identify the car, after all. Otherwise, you're just an anonymous moving 2-ton hunk of metal.
  - oezi 3y ago
    If something is wrong with the car, the owner of the car gets the fine. The owner of the car is on file. If somebody uses the car on the owner's behalf and the fine is tied to the driver the fine must be forwarded by the owner to this person.
    - strix_varius 3y ago
      And since the issue we're discussing is missing a license plate, how do you propose identifying the owner of the car, in order to fine them, without pulling the car over?

Tiktaalik 3y ago

We need automatic enforcement via speed cameras and such, but whenever these are brought in, the car lobby moans about how it's a "cash grab" and not about saving people's lives.