6 ms·

OK, this is going to sound extremely controversial, but as a person who lived for many years in three different worlds: 1. The Western world (born/raised/educa

by _xnmw 3y ago

OK, this is going to sound extremely controversial, but as a person who lived for many years in three different worlds: 1. The Western world (born/raised/educated in Canada) 2. The Arab world (lived for years in Jordan, have Muslim/Arab roots) 3. Eastern Europe (currently living in Ukraine for many years, now volunteering in the war) My observation is that 1. has an overly effeminate culture and harmfully stifles masculinity, or the other extreme 2. has an overly masculine culture and harmfully stifles femininity, 3. celebrates both feminine and masculine qualities in a mostly healthy way, and is the most "balanced" of the places I have lived. The one problem I would say that is way too common here in Eastern Europe is absent/cheating dads, but that is balanced by a strong and independent feminine (not feminist!) expression. For me it was a real awakening and a welcome cure to live in a place where men are men and women are women.

davidguetta 3y ago
Interesting. I thought for 1 there was actually both : half men are effeminate and the other half basically ultra-masculine gym bros ^^. Eastern Europe looks interesting tho
- deleted 3y ago
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- zpeti 3y ago
  > basically ultra-masculine gym bros I don't think that's ultra masculine. At least people around me like that are self obsessed, appearance obsessed but ultimately fragile men. I also know because I was probably almost the same. I had a beard and looked like a lumberjack. Was I a real man? Not really. I'm not saying I now know what a man should be, but it definitely isn't an ultra masculine gym bro. It is someone who can create a stable, responsible, potentially loving environment for a family, someone who can endure a lot of strain and responsibility while still holding it together. It also helps if you have a goal in life other than "look good naked".
  - davidguetta 3y ago
    Well you can be masculine in some ways and not other, it's the whole thing of "alpha person" vs "alpha behavior". Going to the gym makes you strong and fit but yeah if you have 0 personality or are a coward you will have longer term problems
  - skrblr 3y ago
    > someone who can create a stable, responsible, potentially loving environment for a family, someone who can endure a lot of strain and responsibility while still holding it together How is this different from a woman's role?
    - zpeti 3y ago
      Your question floored me for a few hours, it’s a good one, but I think I’ve worked it out. This goal applies to both men and women, but a man needs to do this in terms of protecting his family from the outside, and create the conditions that this can happen within any harsh world, whereas it’s the woman’s job to actually do it inside the bubble that the man created. Obviously these are broad strokes and there are overlaps. But to me a man and a woman are both nothing really without a family, ultimately that’s what all this is about, it’s just how do you create that family and maintain it that’s different slightly.
      - skrblr 3y ago
        :) I think society would be better off if all people were raised to focus on creating stable, responsible families and being resilient to adversity, regardless of gender. Roles within the relationship should be negotiated based on individual strengths. I say that as a woman without children in a very equal marriage, working in software, who worries regularly about the impact of having children. I dread being expected to take on a less "worldly" and more "homemaker" role.
        erenyeager 3y ago
        Curious as to if you can give insight why? I think many mothers would say their role as a mother is the most important and valuable to them. Usually men are more ambitious in their work, and women who become ambitious in work and career risk missing the biological clock to have children.
- arcbyte 3y ago
  Masculinity is summed up in the motives behind why we do things: are you running from something or are you building towards something? You can build an impressive body because you're running from the thoughts and feelings you get when you're at home alone without the endorphins in your blood. Or you can have a vision and build towards that actively. You'll always have both to some degree in everything but the core point here is what percentage are spending in which pole?
k0k0r0 3y ago
I am polish, but was raised in germany. I can confirm the observation about eastern europe, at least regarding poland. Man are man, and Woman are Woman. In general, (non-trans, non-homo and somewhat binary people) seem to have a healthier relationship with their core-gender identity. People in western societies certainly should take an example when it comes to modern gender roles. I would not glorify the situation there, though. Of course, this already implies problems with people with non-traditional orientations and identities. But I wouldn't regard those as the main problems. They even seem somewhat easy to overcome when compared to the usual sexism in Poland. I find sexism in Poland to be a very different thing than sexism in Germany for example. With regards to both genders. It is more reciprocal, with more obvious sexism against man than in germany. It would be a too big subject, to even outline it here.
- bradlys 3y ago
  I find this weird. My interpretation of Poland and of a decent amount of folks who came from Eastern Europe is that both sexes actually exhibit more faux-stoic and vaguely masculine behaviors than other western countries. There is an idea that many people in Eastern Europe are stoic but then the rampant alcoholism and other such behaviors would make it clear that they’re not actually stoic… whatever they’re dealing with actually is troubling them (which it wouldn’t to this degree with a stoic). Poland has plenty of issues… and wiping the whole lgbt-free zone thing under the rug seems quite negligent.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - _xnmw 3y ago
    Can't judge a culture by its emigrants, especially when you don't speak their native language. The cold/stoic stereotype is especially false.
    - bradlys 3y ago
      I say this as someone who spent a month visiting Poland and seeing many native people of the area…
ianai 3y ago
I’m reminded of a general trend I heard of from sociology decades ago-societies birthed around plenty of water tend to be more sexually liberal than those from dryer places. The US is somewhat a mix of that while UA seems to have consistent water access. Are people as glued to social media in EE as they are in the US? Have they had a #metoo movement? How about religious zealots? Granted, in UA it goes a long way to face your own existence in war to clear the mind of certain topics. I’m guessing though there’s some event UA has or hasn’t experienced that helps explain the difference-possibly many. US contends with a lot of guilt around the past as something like societal psychological trauma. Guilt and sexual repression are bigger in the US than elsewhere. Edit-note, the metoo movement had a strong legal component replete with legal, criminal consequences. That would tend to compound the effects, yes?
- SSLy 3y ago
  > *Are people as glued to social media in EE as they are in the US? Millenials and Gen-Z? Absolutely. >Have they had a #metoo movement? Not really, other problems abound. >How about religious zealots? In Poland thanks to them abortion was recently banned. Other countries don't really pay attention to them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lisasays 3y ago
Would you care to elaborate on Observation 1 ("has an overly effeminate culture and harmfully stifles masculinity")? Also, re: "men are men and women are women" -- how are LGBT rights doing in Ukraine outside of Kyiv these days?
vpastore 3y ago
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by _xnmw 3y ago

davidguetta 3y ago

Interesting. I thought for 1 there was actually both : half men are effeminate and the other half basically ultra-masculine gym bros ^^. Eastern Europe looks interesting tho

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zpeti 3y ago
> basically ultra-masculine gym bros I don't think that's ultra masculine. At least people around me like that are self obsessed, appearance obsessed but ultimately fragile men. I also know because I was probably almost the same. I had a beard and looked like a lumberjack. Was I a real man? Not really. I'm not saying I now know what a man should be, but it definitely isn't an ultra masculine gym bro. It is someone who can create a stable, responsible, potentially loving environment for a family, someone who can endure a lot of strain and responsibility while still holding it together. It also helps if you have a goal in life other than "look good naked".
- davidguetta 3y ago
  Well you can be masculine in some ways and not other, it's the whole thing of "alpha person" vs "alpha behavior". Going to the gym makes you strong and fit but yeah if you have 0 personality or are a coward you will have longer term problems
- skrblr 3y ago
  > someone who can create a stable, responsible, potentially loving environment for a family, someone who can endure a lot of strain and responsibility while still holding it together How is this different from a woman's role?
  - zpeti 3y ago
    Your question floored me for a few hours, it’s a good one, but I think I’ve worked it out. This goal applies to both men and women, but a man needs to do this in terms of protecting his family from the outside, and create the conditions that this can happen within any harsh world, whereas it’s the woman’s job to actually do it inside the bubble that the man created. Obviously these are broad strokes and there are overlaps. But to me a man and a woman are both nothing really without a family, ultimately that’s what all this is about, it’s just how do you create that family and maintain it that’s different slightly.
    - skrblr 3y ago
      :) I think society would be better off if all people were raised to focus on creating stable, responsible families and being resilient to adversity, regardless of gender. Roles within the relationship should be negotiated based on individual strengths. I say that as a woman without children in a very equal marriage, working in software, who worries regularly about the impact of having children. I dread being expected to take on a less "worldly" and more "homemaker" role.
      - erenyeager 3y ago
        Curious as to if you can give insight why? I think many mothers would say their role as a mother is the most important and valuable to them. Usually men are more ambitious in their work, and women who become ambitious in work and career risk missing the biological clock to have children.
arcbyte 3y ago
Masculinity is summed up in the motives behind why we do things: are you running from something or are you building towards something? You can build an impressive body because you're running from the thoughts and feelings you get when you're at home alone without the endorphins in your blood. Or you can have a vision and build towards that actively. You'll always have both to some degree in everything but the core point here is what percentage are spending in which pole?

k0k0r0 3y ago

I am polish, but was raised in germany. I can confirm the observation about eastern europe, at least regarding poland. Man are man, and Woman are Woman. In general, (non-trans, non-homo and somewhat binary people) seem to have a healthier relationship with their core-gender identity. People in western societies certainly should take an example when it comes to modern gender roles. I would not glorify the situation there, though. Of course, this already implies problems with people with non-traditional orientations and identities. But I wouldn't regard those as the main problems. They even seem somewhat easy to overcome when compared to the usual sexism in Poland. I find sexism in Poland to be a very different thing than sexism in Germany for example. With regards to both genders. It is more reciprocal, with more obvious sexism against man than in germany. It would be a too big subject, to even outline it here.

bradlys 3y ago
I find this weird. My interpretation of Poland and of a decent amount of folks who came from Eastern Europe is that both sexes actually exhibit more faux-stoic and vaguely masculine behaviors than other western countries. There is an idea that many people in Eastern Europe are stoic but then the rampant alcoholism and other such behaviors would make it clear that they’re not actually stoic… whatever they’re dealing with actually is troubling them (which it wouldn’t to this degree with a stoic). Poland has plenty of issues… and wiping the whole lgbt-free zone thing under the rug seems quite negligent.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- _xnmw 3y ago
  Can't judge a culture by its emigrants, especially when you don't speak their native language. The cold/stoic stereotype is especially false.
  - bradlys 3y ago
    I say this as someone who spent a month visiting Poland and seeing many native people of the area…

ianai 3y ago

I’m reminded of a general trend I heard of from sociology decades ago-societies birthed around plenty of water tend to be more sexually liberal than those from dryer places. The US is somewhat a mix of that while UA seems to have consistent water access. Are people as glued to social media in EE as they are in the US? Have they had a #metoo movement? How about religious zealots? Granted, in UA it goes a long way to face your own existence in war to clear the mind of certain topics. I’m guessing though there’s some event UA has or hasn’t experienced that helps explain the difference-possibly many. US contends with a lot of guilt around the past as something like societal psychological trauma. Guilt and sexual repression are bigger in the US than elsewhere. Edit-note, the metoo movement had a strong legal component replete with legal, criminal consequences. That would tend to compound the effects, yes?

SSLy 3y ago
> *Are people as glued to social media in EE as they are in the US? Millenials and Gen-Z? Absolutely. >Have they had a #metoo movement? Not really, other problems abound. >How about religious zealots? In Poland thanks to them abortion was recently banned. Other countries don't really pay attention to them.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

lisasays 3y ago

Would you care to elaborate on Observation 1 ("has an overly effeminate culture and harmfully stifles masculinity")? Also, re: "men are men and women are women" -- how are LGBT rights doing in Ukraine outside of Kyiv these days?

vpastore 3y ago

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