4 ms·

Compared to all other basic materials we use in our life, lithium is pretty mundane. No war has been faught over cobalt. It's a byproduct of other mining, and q

Compared to all other basic materials we use in our life, lithium is pretty mundane. No war has been faught over cobalt. It's a byproduct of other mining, and quickly being phased out for cheaper less controversial materials. Lithium mining gets a bad rap not because it's particularly environmentally devastating, but because of political narratives that try to prevent technological change. Lithium is really a mundane material. You never hear people complaining about potash mining or other similar salt extraction, lithium is just targeted because of the industries that it upsets, which are in turn orders of magnitude more damaging. Which isn't to say that we shouldn't make it as environmentally friendly as possible. I'm just saying that if you fill up a tank of gas, you have a hell of a lot more to answer for when it comes to environmental karma than if you fill an equivalent lithium battery.

defrost 3y ago
For anyone that would like to go to primary sources for this: Australia has one of the biggest lithium reserves and is the biggest producer of lithium by weight, with most of its production coming from mines in Western Australia. Most Australian lithium is produced from hard-rock spodumene, in contrast to other major producers like Argentina, Chile and China, which produce it mainly from salt lakes. [1] World’s ten largest lithium mines in 2020 [2] Having established that much of the world's lithium is sourced from my state here in Western Australia, these are the local environmental concerns raised [3] (1997) wrt Greenbushes [4] and the local EPA recommendations wrt Greenbushes expansion (2019) [5]. As a state we like clean air, clean beaches, native forrests, traditional ownership | stewardship, protecting the flora and fauna, and making sure mines are cleaned up afterwards. Currently Greenbushes mine is a bloody great hole in the ground, of which we have many, in the near future it will be a large lake surrounded by regrowth. Conditions in Argentina, Chile and China are left as an exercise for the reader .. there is also the matter of processing concentrates which is typically dirtier than mining to export concentrates. Processing can be very polluting, it can also be closely watched and contained with plant wide pads under layed with membranes that are regulalry monitored, inspected, fined for breach, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_mining_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_mining_in_Australia [2] https://www.mining-technology.com/marketdata/ten-largest-lithiums-mines-2020-2/ https://www.mining-technology.com/marketdata/ten-largest-lit... [3] https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Cargill.html https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Cargill.html [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbushes_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbushes_mine [5] https://www.epa.wa.gov.au/media-statements/expansion-greenbushes-lithium-mine-recommended-environmental-approval https://www.epa.wa.gov.au/media-statements/expansion-greenbu...
- DrBazza 3y ago
  Just dropped a google pin on the site and the area is greener than I expected. Would a lake the size of that pit fill naturally and actually persist? And would it ever be of any use for drinking water?
  - defrost 3y ago
    There's a hell of a question . . . That particular mine pit will probably be fine (for reasons of geology and tailings treatment, etc . . . " However " The Berkeley Pit in Butte, Montana, is the cautionary tale everyone wants to avoid. The 1.6km-by-800m copper mine closed in 1982 and gradually filled with water irreversibly contaminated with sulphuric acid, copper, arsenic, cadmium and zinc from the surrounding rock. In 2016, some 3000 migrating snow geese were killed when they landed on the toxic brew. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) must pump out and treat the water – forever. [source] https://cosmosmagazine.com/earth/sustainability/australias-pit-mines/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/earth/sustainability/australias-p... It's certainly worth highlighting that past Western Australian mines have not ben rehabbed to any notable standard: Mine rehab in WA is the pits: Inquiry finds few success stories (2017) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/mine-rehab-in-wa-is-the-pits-inquiry-finds-few-success-stories-20180308-h0x7w9.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/mine-r... and worth noting that articles such as the one linked above are part of a swelling campaign by land holders and others with leverage to bake clean up costs into resource licencing.
    - DrBazza 3y ago
      At least some countries are learning from previous mistakes.
      - defrost 3y ago
        Local feedback helps, if people want land access they need to promise to respect it and hold to those agreements. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-australia-compensate-aboriginal-group-historic-mining-damage-2023-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-australia... Speaking of copper, indigenous land rights, and Anglo-Australian multinational mining .. https://phys.org/news/2023-06-oak-flat-apache-opposition-copper.html https://phys.org/news/2023-06-oak-flat-apache-opposition-cop...
light_hue_1 3y ago
This is too rosy of a picture when it comes to cobalt. Wish that it were so. Two thirds of the world's output is from the Congo. There have been multiple wars over the DRC because of its resources. That's at a large scale. At a small scale even today there are over 100 armed groups that control parts of the country to exploit it's resources and people. It was worse in the past. Many people including children work in "artisanal" mines that are horrific; these people are often modern day slaves. While lithium production is overall much more mundane, cobalt is very harmful to the people who it should be benefitting. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420722004500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142072... https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893...
- boxed 3y ago
  Yea, but it's not really a problem with cobolt, it's a problem with Congo. And it's still a good trade compared to oil that finances all manner of stuff, like the Ukraine war, and international islamist terrorism. There's also less money all in all, which means if we replaced all oil production with lithium batteries, there would be less money total going into industry that is easily hijacked for these types of purposes. Let's also remember that avocado production is being hijacked like this. It's in general dangerous to have an industry that can be easily controlled and managed as it can then be taken over by mafia/terrorism/autocrats. I don't think we should argue that high value agriculture like avocados should be banned :P
  - TapWaterBandit 3y ago
    > I don't think we should argue that high value agriculture like avocados should be banned That probably would start a war. Western hipsters against the world. Throw in quinoa/kale and nukes would be on the table.
  - defrost 3y ago
    The problems in the Congo originated with colonialism [1], esp. King Leopold, and continued throughout the Cold War via the USofA's DoE proxy sourcing of very high grade uranium for nuclear weapons [2]. It's a region that has been actively destabilised by Europeans, Americans, and Russians since the scamble for Africa [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo_Basi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Crisis The Congo's rich natural resources, including uranium—much of the uranium used by the U.S. nuclear programme during World War II was Congolese, led to substantial interest in the region from both the Soviet Union and the United States as the Cold War developed. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa
lm28469 3y ago
Meanwhile... https://www.eurometaux.eu/media/20ad5yza/2022-policymaker-summary-report-final.pdf https://www.eurometaux.eu/media/20ad5yza/2022-policymaker-su...

defrost 3y ago

For anyone that would like to go to primary sources for this: Australia has one of the biggest lithium reserves and is the biggest producer of lithium by weight, with most of its production coming from mines in Western Australia. Most Australian lithium is produced from hard-rock spodumene, in contrast to other major producers like Argentina, Chile and China, which produce it mainly from salt lakes. [1] World’s ten largest lithium mines in 2020 [2] Having established that much of the world's lithium is sourced from my state here in Western Australia, these are the local environmental concerns raised [3] (1997) wrt Greenbushes [4] and the local EPA recommendations wrt Greenbushes expansion (2019) [5]. As a state we like clean air, clean beaches, native forrests, traditional ownership | stewardship, protecting the flora and fauna, and making sure mines are cleaned up afterwards. Currently Greenbushes mine is a bloody great hole in the ground, of which we have many, in the near future it will be a large lake surrounded by regrowth. Conditions in Argentina, Chile and China are left as an exercise for the reader .. there is also the matter of processing concentrates which is typically dirtier than mining to export concentrates. Processing can be very polluting, it can also be closely watched and contained with plant wide pads under layed with membranes that are regulalry monitored, inspected, fined for breach, etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_mining_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_mining_in_Australia [2] https://www.mining-technology.com/marketdata/ten-largest-lithiums-mines-2020-2/ https://www.mining-technology.com/marketdata/ten-largest-lit... [3] https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Cargill.html https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Cargill.html [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbushes_mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbushes_mine [5] https://www.epa.wa.gov.au/media-statements/expansion-greenbushes-lithium-mine-recommended-environmental-approval https://www.epa.wa.gov.au/media-statements/expansion-greenbu...

DrBazza 3y ago
Just dropped a google pin on the site and the area is greener than I expected. Would a lake the size of that pit fill naturally and actually persist? And would it ever be of any use for drinking water?
- defrost 3y ago
  There's a hell of a question . . . That particular mine pit will probably be fine (for reasons of geology and tailings treatment, etc . . . " However " The Berkeley Pit in Butte, Montana, is the cautionary tale everyone wants to avoid. The 1.6km-by-800m copper mine closed in 1982 and gradually filled with water irreversibly contaminated with sulphuric acid, copper, arsenic, cadmium and zinc from the surrounding rock. In 2016, some 3000 migrating snow geese were killed when they landed on the toxic brew. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) must pump out and treat the water – forever. [source] https://cosmosmagazine.com/earth/sustainability/australias-pit-mines/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/earth/sustainability/australias-p... It's certainly worth highlighting that past Western Australian mines have not ben rehabbed to any notable standard: Mine rehab in WA is the pits: Inquiry finds few success stories (2017) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/mine-rehab-in-wa-is-the-pits-inquiry-finds-few-success-stories-20180308-h0x7w9.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/mine-r... and worth noting that articles such as the one linked above are part of a swelling campaign by land holders and others with leverage to bake clean up costs into resource licencing.
  - DrBazza 3y ago
    At least some countries are learning from previous mistakes.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Local feedback helps, if people want land access they need to promise to respect it and hold to those agreements. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-australia-compensate-aboriginal-group-historic-mining-damage-2023-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-australia... Speaking of copper, indigenous land rights, and Anglo-Australian multinational mining .. https://phys.org/news/2023-06-oak-flat-apache-opposition-copper.html https://phys.org/news/2023-06-oak-flat-apache-opposition-cop...

light_hue_1 3y ago

This is too rosy of a picture when it comes to cobalt. Wish that it were so. Two thirds of the world's output is from the Congo. There have been multiple wars over the DRC because of its resources. That's at a large scale. At a small scale even today there are over 100 armed groups that control parts of the country to exploit it's resources and people. It was worse in the past. Many people including children work in "artisanal" mines that are horrific; these people are often modern day slaves. While lithium production is overall much more mundane, cobalt is very harmful to the people who it should be benefitting. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301420722004500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142072... https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893...

boxed 3y ago
Yea, but it's not really a problem with cobolt, it's a problem with Congo. And it's still a good trade compared to oil that finances all manner of stuff, like the Ukraine war, and international islamist terrorism. There's also less money all in all, which means if we replaced all oil production with lithium batteries, there would be less money total going into industry that is easily hijacked for these types of purposes. Let's also remember that avocado production is being hijacked like this. It's in general dangerous to have an industry that can be easily controlled and managed as it can then be taken over by mafia/terrorism/autocrats. I don't think we should argue that high value agriculture like avocados should be banned :P
- TapWaterBandit 3y ago
  > I don't think we should argue that high value agriculture like avocados should be banned That probably would start a war. Western hipsters against the world. Throw in quinoa/kale and nukes would be on the table.
- defrost 3y ago
  The problems in the Congo originated with colonialism [1], esp. King Leopold, and continued throughout the Cold War via the USofA's DoE proxy sourcing of very high grade uranium for nuclear weapons [2]. It's a region that has been actively destabilised by Europeans, Americans, and Russians since the scamble for Africa [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Congo_Basi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Crisis The Congo's rich natural resources, including uranium—much of the uranium used by the U.S. nuclear programme during World War II was Congolese, led to substantial interest in the region from both the Soviet Union and the United States as the Cold War developed. [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa

lm28469 3y ago

Meanwhile... https://www.eurometaux.eu/media/20ad5yza/2022-policymaker-summary-report-final.pdf https://www.eurometaux.eu/media/20ad5yza/2022-policymaker-su...