6 ms·

I really wanna ask whoever wrote that if trans men are included

arp242 3y ago
Speaking of which, I felt [1] was a rather interesting article on that. Multiple people are interviewed and their experiences differ, but stuff like this really stands out, and especially that last paragraph is pretty relevant here: Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.” Never mind that I am a first-generation Mexican American, a transsexual man, and married to the same woman I was with prior to my transition. I find the assertion that I am now unable to speak out on issues I find important offensive and I refuse to allow anyone to silence me. My ability to empathize has grown exponentially, because I now factor men into my thinking and feeling about situations. Prior to my transition, I rarely considered how men experienced life or what they thought, wanted or liked about their lives. I have learned so much about the lives of men through my friendships with men What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being. I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.” I was stunned, because I recall being in similar situations, but in the reverse, many times: A man would say or do something deemed obnoxious or offensive, and I would find solidarity with the women around me as we made eye contact, rolled our eyes and maybe even commented out loud on the situation. I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feat...
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago
  >I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me. Because male intra-gender solidarity is viewed as the first step to neo-Nazism, so we grin and bear it in mixed company.
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    To be fair, it often is, but we don't have to let it be.
- Khaine 3y ago
  This isn't even new, what is surprising is how society refuses to listen to Men. In 2006 Norah Vincent a woman, pretended to be a man for 12 months and wrote a book about her experience called Self Made Man, see some interviews about the book[1][2] The mental strain of maintaining a false identity during the making of Self-Made Man ultimately caused a depressive breakdown, leading Vincent to admit herself to a locked psychiatric facility [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uv8gT9Kxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uv8gT9Kxw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWkgCEPFmXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWkgCEPFmXo
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Wonder how much of this is built in. Robert Sapolsky studies baboons, and I heard him describe this same behavior. Males would were in constant competition, and if one tripped up in any way, the others jumped him. Females would protect each other, form a group to help each other. If one tripped up, the others would come to their aid.
slt2021 3y ago
all trans people must have been included, because they were either born as male biologically or became men and self-identify as such
msla 3y ago
The dogma among certain groups of feminists is that trans men are "really" confused lesbians, and that those feminists are entitled to their bodies because they "should" be in lesbian relationships as opposed to transitioning. Claiming those feminists aren't feminists does nothing to stop them from calling themselves feminists.
- lucubratory 3y ago
  Yes, the phenomena you're describing is very real, but I guarantee you that that type of person would never graffiti "Trans rights are human rights". If the story is accurate as conveyed and the separate graffiti instances really were written by the same person (not a given, a lot of stories like this aren't true on the internet, although I think this one probably is), I have a decent idea of the sort of person that would write it - I have known a couple that could have written this while they were teenagers. Someone from the postmodern left or intersectional queer theory milieux, certainly young, not a cisgender man, who is frustrated with the ability of powerful men to continuously escape accountability for the violence they enact against women and queer people. They view "kill all men" as a non-literal rallying cry to demonstrate their seriousness and willingness to fight against the injustices they recognise in the world (and are/were likely subject to in their own lives). I am extremely certain they have never killed a man, and just as certain that if given the choice they would not actually kill all men (or any appreciable quantity thereof). They would probably kill a lot of rapists, if given omniscience and omnipotence. I'm giving all of this characterisation because I think it's very unlikely that most people on HN would have met or known well the sort of people that say these sort of things genuinely, and because most of what I see here on these topics is either genuine confusion or literally misguided anger that doesn't understand the people they are angry at. For context, I agree with "Trans rights are human rights" as a slogan and disagree with "Kill all men" as a slogan.
  - msla 3y ago
    > I'm giving all of this characterisation because I think it's very unlikely that most people on HN would have met or known well the sort of people that say these sort of things genuinely, and because most of what I see here on these topics is either genuine confusion or literally misguided anger that doesn't understand the people they are angry at. Granted. However, even though we can never fully understand another person, we can still demand that nobody in the room calls for the elimination of another group of people, even as a "joke" or "expression of anger" or similar. That's basic defense of human rights, the acknowledgement that nobody deserves to be targeted for things they can't control. Because jokes are used by extremists to gauge the tone of the rest of the group, and, if the group is conducive, they magically aren't jokes anymore. > For context, I agree with "Trans rights are human rights" as a slogan and disagree with "Kill all men" as a slogan. Yes, I fully agree with this.

Speaking of which, I felt [1] was a rather interesting article on that. Multiple people are interviewed and their experiences differ, but stuff like this really stands out, and especially that last paragraph is pretty relevant here: Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.” Never mind that I am a first-generation Mexican American, a transsexual man, and married to the same woman I was with prior to my transition. I find the assertion that I am now unable to speak out on issues I find important offensive and I refuse to allow anyone to silence me. My ability to empathize has grown exponentially, because I now factor men into my thinking and feeling about situations. Prior to my transition, I rarely considered how men experienced life or what they thought, wanted or liked about their lives. I have learned so much about the lives of men through my friendships with men What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being. I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.” I was stunned, because I recall being in similar situations, but in the reverse, many times: A man would say or do something deemed obnoxious or offensive, and I would find solidarity with the women around me as we made eye contact, rolled our eyes and maybe even commented out loud on the situation. I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feat...

eli_gottlieb 3y ago
>I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me. Because male intra-gender solidarity is viewed as the first step to neo-Nazism, so we grin and bear it in mixed company.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  To be fair, it often is, but we don't have to let it be.
Khaine 3y ago
This isn't even new, what is surprising is how society refuses to listen to Men. In 2006 Norah Vincent a woman, pretended to be a man for 12 months and wrote a book about her experience called Self Made Man, see some interviews about the book[1][2] The mental strain of maintaining a false identity during the making of Self-Made Man ultimately caused a depressive breakdown, leading Vincent to admit herself to a locked psychiatric facility [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uv8gT9Kxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uv8gT9Kxw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWkgCEPFmXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWkgCEPFmXo
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Wonder how much of this is built in. Robert Sapolsky studies baboons, and I heard him describe this same behavior. Males would were in constant competition, and if one tripped up in any way, the others jumped him. Females would protect each other, form a group to help each other. If one tripped up, the others would come to their aid.

slt2021 3y ago

all trans people must have been included, because they were either born as male biologically or became men and self-identify as such

msla 3y ago

The dogma among certain groups of feminists is that trans men are "really" confused lesbians, and that those feminists are entitled to their bodies because they "should" be in lesbian relationships as opposed to transitioning. Claiming those feminists aren't feminists does nothing to stop them from calling themselves feminists.

lucubratory 3y ago
Yes, the phenomena you're describing is very real, but I guarantee you that that type of person would never graffiti "Trans rights are human rights". If the story is accurate as conveyed and the separate graffiti instances really were written by the same person (not a given, a lot of stories like this aren't true on the internet, although I think this one probably is), I have a decent idea of the sort of person that would write it - I have known a couple that could have written this while they were teenagers. Someone from the postmodern left or intersectional queer theory milieux, certainly young, not a cisgender man, who is frustrated with the ability of powerful men to continuously escape accountability for the violence they enact against women and queer people. They view "kill all men" as a non-literal rallying cry to demonstrate their seriousness and willingness to fight against the injustices they recognise in the world (and are/were likely subject to in their own lives). I am extremely certain they have never killed a man, and just as certain that if given the choice they would not actually kill all men (or any appreciable quantity thereof). They would probably kill a lot of rapists, if given omniscience and omnipotence. I'm giving all of this characterisation because I think it's very unlikely that most people on HN would have met or known well the sort of people that say these sort of things genuinely, and because most of what I see here on these topics is either genuine confusion or literally misguided anger that doesn't understand the people they are angry at. For context, I agree with "Trans rights are human rights" as a slogan and disagree with "Kill all men" as a slogan.
- msla 3y ago
  > I'm giving all of this characterisation because I think it's very unlikely that most people on HN would have met or known well the sort of people that say these sort of things genuinely, and because most of what I see here on these topics is either genuine confusion or literally misguided anger that doesn't understand the people they are angry at. Granted. However, even though we can never fully understand another person, we can still demand that nobody in the room calls for the elimination of another group of people, even as a "joke" or "expression of anger" or similar. That's basic defense of human rights, the acknowledgement that nobody deserves to be targeted for things they can't control. Because jokes are used by extremists to gauge the tone of the rest of the group, and, if the group is conducive, they magically aren't jokes anymore. > For context, I agree with "Trans rights are human rights" as a slogan and disagree with "Kill all men" as a slogan. Yes, I fully agree with this.