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Do you know if your 2002 has side-impact anti-intrusion bars in the doors? I loved my 1999 Isuzu Amigo, and was sad when I was rear-ended in 2017 and had to ge

Do you know if your 2002 has side-impact anti-intrusion bars in the doors? I loved my 1999 Isuzu Amigo, and was sad when I was rear-ended in 2017 and had to get rid of it, but that fender bender probably saved my life. I replaced the Amigo with a 2014 Outlander Sport and in 2019 I was t-boned at an intersection, with the other car driving directly into my driver's side door. I was amazed to find that I escaped without a scratch. I did some research and found that the Amigo had terrible side-impact safety ratings; if I was still driving the Amigo I probably would have been crushed. In 2007 (effective 2009), the NHTSA mandated that all new vehicles have anti-intrusion bars in doors. That bar saved me. I think there's a sweet-spot in the mid-2010s when vehicles were being built with efficiency, safety, and durability in mind and weren't yet being festooned with computerized junk.

alejohausner 3y ago
You're leaving out the punchline of your reply: those side-impact bars protect passengers better, but they also make the car windows higher, and reduce visibility. It's harder to see out the back of modern cars when you simply turn your body around and look behind you. That's why backup cameras are becoming mandatory in new cars.
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  Interesting. I didn't know that. Before the accident, I would have taken bigger windows over the side-impact bars if I'd been presented with the choice. And now I'm thankful to the regulators for taking away that freedom of choice. Odd.
  - rideontime 3y ago
    A teaching moment. Sometimes the regulators actually do know what's best.
    - mech7654 3y ago
      I am often frustrated at the poor visibility out of modern cars and I wonder how many crashes are caused by the poor visibility. It is the other side of the tradeoff that crash survivability data will not show- how many crashes would have been avoided altogether with better visibility.
      - photonbeam 3y ago
        Had a near miss today with a cyclist who was covered by the giant windshield pillars
        flagrant_taco 3y ago
        I lived in Europe for a few years and was really struck by the focus on protecting pedestrians rather than drivers
        xnx 3y ago
        Entire compact cars can be obscured by the a pillar in my 2018 vehicle. Textbook case of unintended consequences.
        mrguyorama 3y ago
        You are supposed to move your head around enough to see around the pillars
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    Honest question - Would you rather have had the knowledge of the pros and cons of different designs, or the lack of freedom of choice when regulators know what's best for you?
    - vGPU 3y ago
      Pre-covid, I drove a low slung coupe. My roof was roughly equal in height to most people’s windowsill. I was fine with it. Post covid, I drive a midsize suv, and am no longer comfortable riding my motorcycle. What has changed? Simple - the other drivers. I now often witness an accident almost daily. I had a car wipe out in front of me last week. I constantly have drivers blindly merging into my lane. I don’t know what the long term effects of covid are, but I’m pretty sure they include the removal of awareness that other drivers exist on the road, as well as basic human decency. I used to joke that when I was driving on the west coast, I’d have to remove my turn signal as I’d have the car behind immediately speed up to cut me off. Sadly, this has now become the reality here on the east coast also.
      - flagrant_taco 3y ago
        Do you think those are side effects of covid itself or more related to our pandemic response (lock downs, closing schools, WFH, vaccines, or something else)? This was pre-pandemic response, but for a few years I drove a Toyota MR2 and had a couple motorcycles. I feel pretty damn lucky to never have seen what would have happened to me wrecking any of those vehicles.
        vGPU 3y ago
        Who knows? There have definitely been plenty of studies showing that we're seeing more inflammation and I have definitely felt like people in general are getting "dumber". Likely a mix of several factors.
        ethbr0 3y ago
        How'd the MR2 drive? I've had one of those on my quirk to-buy list for awhile.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  If the regulators really knew what's best, wouldn't they push to reduce the overall frame size of vehicles, rather than allowing monster SUVs to take over the highways all over these United States? I just watched a video where they lined up about a dozen small children sitting in front of an SUV, and the driver could not see any of them through the windshield. If visibility is a problem, then personal cars are too large. It seems like a simple fix. Or we could throw wads of technology at the wall and see what sticks?
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    If regulators knew what was best, I honestly think they would stop acting as though that can define what is best for hundreds of millions of people with a shortlist of laws. Life is complicated. Our country is diverse in population, culture, environment, etc. What's good for some of not good for all. The fact that there are multiple competing ideas of how to best design a car for safety is case in point. Larger frames and door reinforcement makes sense for intrusion protection, but the oposite makes sense to favor visibility. Which approach is considered so good as to make a legal requirement, and what options aren't included in that choice? I'd be happy to see our government heavily fund unbiased research and public education. In this example, learn what different car designs do for safety and tell the public. Allows us to make our own decisions, empowered with a better understanding of what our options are.
calvinmorrison 3y ago
Like these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Cross_section_of_Saab_9000.jpg/1280px-Cross_section_of_Saab_9000.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Cr... For reference the 9000 entered the US market in the mid 80s
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  Yes. According to wikipedia, they were invented by GM in 1969, but it seems they didn't become a standard safety feature until the 2000s.
HybridCurve 3y ago
This was my take when people suggest older cars as an alternative. Safety has improved dramatically in the past 20-30 years, especially with side impacts where fatalities or serious injury can be common. It's one of the few reservations I have when driving my '91 BMW.
- blueridge 3y ago
  Yeah, this resonates. I don't need maximum comfort in my vehicle, and I don't think the electronic and technology features are necessary. But I do think about safety and I do have reservations when driving, depending on where I'm going and how I need to drive to get there. I do know that if I was t-boned I'd be toast, and I often think about buying a new car just for the upgrades with airbags, materials, construction, etc. But the joy of driving the car, the familiarity and feel of the car on the road in all weather, the intuition behind the wheel...I just really love it.

alejohausner 3y ago

You're leaving out the punchline of your reply: those side-impact bars protect passengers better, but they also make the car windows higher, and reduce visibility. It's harder to see out the back of modern cars when you simply turn your body around and look behind you. That's why backup cameras are becoming mandatory in new cars.

foobarbecue 3y ago
Interesting. I didn't know that. Before the accident, I would have taken bigger windows over the side-impact bars if I'd been presented with the choice. And now I'm thankful to the regulators for taking away that freedom of choice. Odd.
- rideontime 3y ago
  A teaching moment. Sometimes the regulators actually do know what's best.
  - mech7654 3y ago
    I am often frustrated at the poor visibility out of modern cars and I wonder how many crashes are caused by the poor visibility. It is the other side of the tradeoff that crash survivability data will not show- how many crashes would have been avoided altogether with better visibility.
    - photonbeam 3y ago
      Had a near miss today with a cyclist who was covered by the giant windshield pillars
      - flagrant_taco 3y ago
        I lived in Europe for a few years and was really struck by the focus on protecting pedestrians rather than drivers
      - xnx 3y ago
        Entire compact cars can be obscured by the a pillar in my 2018 vehicle. Textbook case of unintended consequences.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        You are supposed to move your head around enough to see around the pillars
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  Honest question - Would you rather have had the knowledge of the pros and cons of different designs, or the lack of freedom of choice when regulators know what's best for you?
  - vGPU 3y ago
    Pre-covid, I drove a low slung coupe. My roof was roughly equal in height to most people’s windowsill. I was fine with it. Post covid, I drive a midsize suv, and am no longer comfortable riding my motorcycle. What has changed? Simple - the other drivers. I now often witness an accident almost daily. I had a car wipe out in front of me last week. I constantly have drivers blindly merging into my lane. I don’t know what the long term effects of covid are, but I’m pretty sure they include the removal of awareness that other drivers exist on the road, as well as basic human decency. I used to joke that when I was driving on the west coast, I’d have to remove my turn signal as I’d have the car behind immediately speed up to cut me off. Sadly, this has now become the reality here on the east coast also.
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      Do you think those are side effects of covid itself or more related to our pandemic response (lock downs, closing schools, WFH, vaccines, or something else)? This was pre-pandemic response, but for a few years I drove a Toyota MR2 and had a couple motorcycles. I feel pretty damn lucky to never have seen what would have happened to me wrecking any of those vehicles.
      - vGPU 3y ago
        Who knows? There have definitely been plenty of studies showing that we're seeing more inflammation and I have definitely felt like people in general are getting "dumber". Likely a mix of several factors.
      - ethbr0 3y ago
        How'd the MR2 drive? I've had one of those on my quirk to-buy list for awhile.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
If the regulators really knew what's best, wouldn't they push to reduce the overall frame size of vehicles, rather than allowing monster SUVs to take over the highways all over these United States? I just watched a video where they lined up about a dozen small children sitting in front of an SUV, and the driver could not see any of them through the windshield. If visibility is a problem, then personal cars are too large. It seems like a simple fix. Or we could throw wads of technology at the wall and see what sticks?
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  If regulators knew what was best, I honestly think they would stop acting as though that can define what is best for hundreds of millions of people with a shortlist of laws. Life is complicated. Our country is diverse in population, culture, environment, etc. What's good for some of not good for all. The fact that there are multiple competing ideas of how to best design a car for safety is case in point. Larger frames and door reinforcement makes sense for intrusion protection, but the oposite makes sense to favor visibility. Which approach is considered so good as to make a legal requirement, and what options aren't included in that choice? I'd be happy to see our government heavily fund unbiased research and public education. In this example, learn what different car designs do for safety and tell the public. Allows us to make our own decisions, empowered with a better understanding of what our options are.

calvinmorrison 3y ago

Like these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Cross_section_of_Saab_9000.jpg/1280px-Cross_section_of_Saab_9000.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Cr... For reference the 9000 entered the US market in the mid 80s

foobarbecue 3y ago
Yes. According to wikipedia, they were invented by GM in 1969, but it seems they didn't become a standard safety feature until the 2000s.

HybridCurve 3y ago

This was my take when people suggest older cars as an alternative. Safety has improved dramatically in the past 20-30 years, especially with side impacts where fatalities or serious injury can be common. It's one of the few reservations I have when driving my '91 BMW.

blueridge 3y ago
Yeah, this resonates. I don't need maximum comfort in my vehicle, and I don't think the electronic and technology features are necessary. But I do think about safety and I do have reservations when driving, depending on where I'm going and how I need to drive to get there. I do know that if I was t-boned I'd be toast, and I often think about buying a new car just for the upgrades with airbags, materials, construction, etc. But the joy of driving the car, the familiarity and feel of the car on the road in all weather, the intuition behind the wheel...I just really love it.