5 ms·

> you’re a middle manager who needs therapy Let me expand on that: “you’re a middle manager who needs therapy” – because we’ve built a society where you can’t

by Swizec 3y ago

> you’re a middle manager who needs therapy Let me expand on that: “you’re a middle manager who needs therapy” – because we’ve built a society where you can’t fulfill your innate desires. I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. You can’t just take a monkey out of the savannah, put it in a cubicle, then say “you need therapy” when it misbehaves. PS: I’m not saying therapy doesn’t work, just that it feels like we’re using it as a bandaid on a deeper issue. Like, hey, maybe people should lead fulfilling lives instead of using therapy to fit themselves into the box society drew for them.

mikrl 3y ago
>I for one am tired of the therapy meme Not like I’ll ever access it (too masc, heh) but I definitely see therapy as a much more positive way to address your emotions than self destructive or violent behaviour. Sports and stuff helps too, maybe martial arts are the masculine equivalent to talk therapy.
philipkglass 3y ago
I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. I don't think that the majority of people need therapy. But I've also never met a manager who acted like they were a Spartan going to war. This may well be one of those social bubble sorting issues, where something that is common in one person's experience is very rare in another person's experience.
- mikrl 3y ago
  It’s not that middle managers act like warriors. It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ and, like the proverbial middle manager, probably just need someone to tell them they aren’t alone and things will be OK in due course, or whatever a therapist does.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    > The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence And yet the manufactured adversity industry is booming. Look at all the marathons and triathlons and iron mans and spartan races and ninja warriors and all the other nonsense we’ve invented just to scratch this itch for men and women alike. Humans _need_ something to fight against. If there’s nothing, they’ll make something up.
    - GenericPoster 3y ago
      Assuming that humans actually need something to fight against. Then it's a good thing that we're making up reasons to do so. It's better than terrorizing innocent people halfway across the globe or even those that are closest to us. If these hyper aggressive people are given a relatively safe outlet to express their emotions then the world is better for it. I'm curious why you think it's nonsense though. Those activities can be fun, safe and encourage discipline.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Most of the people I know who have done those races are essentially competing against themselves- they want to say they were able to do it. I haven't met anyone who was actually competitive about it in terms of wanting to be the fastest or whatever. I suspect it is a minority of the group, who in turn are also a minority of society. If we are making generalizations about what humans need, I wouldn't consider "fighting against something". Perhaps "being right on the internet" would fit more people.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. No one is pushing that, other than those that push that as a strawman. > The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ You are so far off the mark that you're crossing over into speculative fiction at this point. Ever heard of testosterone? Do you know what the effects are? Okay, sure, it doesn't result in a bloodlust, but it is largely responsible for active aggression. As a society we channel this aggression into sports where it can be safely bled with limited violence.
taffer 3y ago
> I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. What's wrong with therapy? You go to the doctor from time to time to take care of your physical health, why shouldn't you go to a therapist from time to time to take care of your mental health?
- Swizec 3y ago
  > What's wrong with therapy? Nothing is wrong with therapy. I’m just saying that if your entire diet consists of ice cream and you’re feeling poorly, maybe try eating some veggies. You don’t need a doctor for that.
  - taffer 3y ago
    When the damage is already done, you need both. You need to address the social problems that cause mental health problems, which, by the way, is not easy, and you need therapy for those who already have mental health problems.
    - Swizec 3y ago
      Agree. I think the crucial difference to me is whether people say “You need therapy [to change your life]” (good imo) or “You need therapy [to fit into your life]” (bad imo). And it feels like too many people mean the latter.
- skissane 3y ago
  > You go to the doctor from time to time to take care of your physical health, why shouldn't you go to a therapist from time to time to take care of your mental health? I don't know about the US, but here in Australia, GPs are supposed to take care of both your physical health and your mental health. Feel the need to see a psychologist? You go see your GP, and they create a GP mental health care plan, which entitles you to a certain number of government-subsidised psychologist sessions per a year. At a certain point through those sessions, you need to go back to the GP to get the plan reviewed. The psychologist sends your GP status reports on your progress. Feel the need to see a psychiatrist? You need to go to your GP and get a psychiatry referral, before a psychiatrist will see you. You have to go back to the GP once every 12 months to get the referral renewed. The psychiatrist sends regular reports back to the GP on your progress. GPs also commonly prescribe antidepressants, anti-anxiety drugs, antipsychotics, etc. Individuals with more serious mental health needs are referred to psychiatry/psychology (sometimes paediatrics for children/adolescents), also those who need prescriptions GPs can't legally write (mostly psycho-stimulants for ADHD). All this talk of "you need therapy" is very American. One thing the Australian government is concerned about, is people with only mild (or even non-existent) mental health issues consuming mental health resources, causing strain on the availability of those resources for those with more severe mental health issues who really need them, and adding to the burden on the taxpayer – especially when those who seek out professional mental health services for minor issues skew middle-to-upper class, while many lower class people with serious mental health issues aren't getting enough support.
corinroyal 3y ago
> If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. This. Pioneering psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich, father of character analysis made a similar claim. He was pilloried for suggesting that we should focus on prevention of mental illness over treatment. To do this he said that we should radically reorient our societies so that they meet people's organismic needs. He died in US prison. The psych establishment now is a tool to rehabilitate workers who have become unproductive, not a way to help humans fulfill their potential. Therapy has been helpful to me, but woefully inadequate. That is by design. It's not about my needs, it's about my employer's needs.
- lucubratory 3y ago
  He died in US prison because he was committing large scale fraud, specifically by claiming to be selling a miracle cure for cancer that didn't actually work. For those curious, the miracle cure was sitting inside a special magic box he claimed would do something with your "orgone energy", which was like that orgasm/organism joke but posited as a real thing his device could help you with.
  - corinroyal 3y ago
    Reich had been persecuted on two continents long before he went crazy and raved about cloudbusting and orgone. The early psychoanalytic period was a wacky time by modern psychological standards, and his pseudoscience about "bions" didn't help. But what really did him in was his transgression of practitioner neutrality, his advocacy of free sexual expression, his touch-based therapies, and his insistence that a psychiatrist's job is to help reform society to better meet the psycho and the somatic needs of the masses. Only then could we prevent "neurosis" rather than just treat it. Even today the idea of reforming society to prevent mental illness is hugely controversial. They burned his books, including "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" and his seminal "Character Analysis" in what has been called one of the worst instances of book burning in US history at the time. Looks like the burning times are back, eh? He was jailed for refusing not to proselytize the Orgone box, but that was really a pretext. Orgone boxes aren't in any way dangerous. He was jailed because his theories and practice were a threat to the status quo.
edgyquant 3y ago
The therapy meme is just another result of monetizing every thing about our lives. There’s a whole industry that benefits from us thinking everyone needs therapy. Sometime I wish we had a real, secular, replacement for the church that existed off of donations (with basically everyone donating for cultural reasons) and took care of education, medicine, community building and psychiatric support. One that wasn’t the government, obviously, since that has the monopoly on violence as well.
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
There's always room for society to be improved, but I'll take a society where everyone needs therapy over one where most people die of disease, hunger or violence long before reaching old age.

by Swizec 3y ago

mikrl 3y ago

>I for one am tired of the therapy meme Not like I’ll ever access it (too masc, heh) but I definitely see therapy as a much more positive way to address your emotions than self destructive or violent behaviour. Sports and stuff helps too, maybe martial arts are the masculine equivalent to talk therapy.

philipkglass 3y ago

I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. I don't think that the majority of people need therapy. But I've also never met a manager who acted like they were a Spartan going to war. This may well be one of those social bubble sorting issues, where something that is common in one person's experience is very rare in another person's experience.

mikrl 3y ago
It’s not that middle managers act like warriors. It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ and, like the proverbial middle manager, probably just need someone to tell them they aren’t alone and things will be OK in due course, or whatever a therapist does.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence And yet the manufactured adversity industry is booming. Look at all the marathons and triathlons and iron mans and spartan races and ninja warriors and all the other nonsense we’ve invented just to scratch this itch for men and women alike. Humans _need_ something to fight against. If there’s nothing, they’ll make something up.
  - GenericPoster 3y ago
    Assuming that humans actually need something to fight against. Then it's a good thing that we're making up reasons to do so. It's better than terrorizing innocent people halfway across the globe or even those that are closest to us. If these hyper aggressive people are given a relatively safe outlet to express their emotions then the world is better for it. I'm curious why you think it's nonsense though. Those activities can be fun, safe and encourage discipline.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Most of the people I know who have done those races are essentially competing against themselves- they want to say they were able to do it. I haven't met anyone who was actually competitive about it in terms of wanting to be the fastest or whatever. I suspect it is a minority of the group, who in turn are also a minority of society. If we are making generalizations about what humans need, I wouldn't consider "fighting against something". Perhaps "being right on the internet" would fit more people.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. No one is pushing that, other than those that push that as a strawman. > The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ You are so far off the mark that you're crossing over into speculative fiction at this point. Ever heard of testosterone? Do you know what the effects are? Okay, sure, it doesn't result in a bloodlust, but it is largely responsible for active aggression. As a society we channel this aggression into sports where it can be safely bled with limited violence.

taffer 3y ago

> I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. What's wrong with therapy? You go to the doctor from time to time to take care of your physical health, why shouldn't you go to a therapist from time to time to take care of your mental health?

Swizec 3y ago
> What's wrong with therapy? Nothing is wrong with therapy. I’m just saying that if your entire diet consists of ice cream and you’re feeling poorly, maybe try eating some veggies. You don’t need a doctor for that.
- taffer 3y ago
  When the damage is already done, you need both. You need to address the social problems that cause mental health problems, which, by the way, is not easy, and you need therapy for those who already have mental health problems.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Agree. I think the crucial difference to me is whether people say “You need therapy [to change your life]” (good imo) or “You need therapy [to fit into your life]” (bad imo). And it feels like too many people mean the latter.
skissane 3y ago
> You go to the doctor from time to time to take care of your physical health, why shouldn't you go to a therapist from time to time to take care of your mental health? I don't know about the US, but here in Australia, GPs are supposed to take care of both your physical health and your mental health. Feel the need to see a psychologist? You go see your GP, and they create a GP mental health care plan, which entitles you to a certain number of government-subsidised psychologist sessions per a year. At a certain point through those sessions, you need to go back to the GP to get the plan reviewed. The psychologist sends your GP status reports on your progress. Feel the need to see a psychiatrist? You need to go to your GP and get a psychiatry referral, before a psychiatrist will see you. You have to go back to the GP once every 12 months to get the referral renewed. The psychiatrist sends regular reports back to the GP on your progress. GPs also commonly prescribe antidepressants, anti-anxiety drugs, antipsychotics, etc. Individuals with more serious mental health needs are referred to psychiatry/psychology (sometimes paediatrics for children/adolescents), also those who need prescriptions GPs can't legally write (mostly psycho-stimulants for ADHD). All this talk of "you need therapy" is very American. One thing the Australian government is concerned about, is people with only mild (or even non-existent) mental health issues consuming mental health resources, causing strain on the availability of those resources for those with more severe mental health issues who really need them, and adding to the burden on the taxpayer – especially when those who seek out professional mental health services for minor issues skew middle-to-upper class, while many lower class people with serious mental health issues aren't getting enough support.

corinroyal 3y ago

> If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. This. Pioneering psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich, father of character analysis made a similar claim. He was pilloried for suggesting that we should focus on prevention of mental illness over treatment. To do this he said that we should radically reorient our societies so that they meet people's organismic needs. He died in US prison. The psych establishment now is a tool to rehabilitate workers who have become unproductive, not a way to help humans fulfill their potential. Therapy has been helpful to me, but woefully inadequate. That is by design. It's not about my needs, it's about my employer's needs.

lucubratory 3y ago
He died in US prison because he was committing large scale fraud, specifically by claiming to be selling a miracle cure for cancer that didn't actually work. For those curious, the miracle cure was sitting inside a special magic box he claimed would do something with your "orgone energy", which was like that orgasm/organism joke but posited as a real thing his device could help you with.
- corinroyal 3y ago
  Reich had been persecuted on two continents long before he went crazy and raved about cloudbusting and orgone. The early psychoanalytic period was a wacky time by modern psychological standards, and his pseudoscience about "bions" didn't help. But what really did him in was his transgression of practitioner neutrality, his advocacy of free sexual expression, his touch-based therapies, and his insistence that a psychiatrist's job is to help reform society to better meet the psycho and the somatic needs of the masses. Only then could we prevent "neurosis" rather than just treat it. Even today the idea of reforming society to prevent mental illness is hugely controversial. They burned his books, including "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" and his seminal "Character Analysis" in what has been called one of the worst instances of book burning in US history at the time. Looks like the burning times are back, eh? He was jailed for refusing not to proselytize the Orgone box, but that was really a pretext. Orgone boxes aren't in any way dangerous. He was jailed because his theories and practice were a threat to the status quo.

edgyquant 3y ago

The therapy meme is just another result of monetizing every thing about our lives. There’s a whole industry that benefits from us thinking everyone needs therapy. Sometime I wish we had a real, secular, replacement for the church that existed off of donations (with basically everyone donating for cultural reasons) and took care of education, medicine, community building and psychiatric support. One that wasn’t the government, obviously, since that has the monopoly on violence as well.

TheCoelacanth 3y ago

There's always room for society to be improved, but I'll take a society where everyone needs therapy over one where most people die of disease, hunger or violence long before reaching old age.