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Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boast

Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boastful, being reluctant to show emotions other than anger. A lot of people are just triggered by the term for whatever reason. You could just as easily replace "toxic masculinity" with the word "machismo" if it makes you feel less threatened

epicureanideal 3y ago
"Machismo" is still a gendered term though. Why not just describe it as "being an asshole", or "stubbornness", or "aggressiveness", or "being disagreeable", "being antisocial", etc?
- opportune 3y ago
  Well, it's a masculine failure mode of essentially being overly prideful/insecure of maintaining one's sense of masculinity. You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights
  - falcolas 3y ago
    > You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights Why limit this only to "masculine" pride? You absolutely see women picking fights to defend their pride. We just call that behavior "being a Karen" (or "catfights"). Which, being fair, both come with their own misogynistic problems.
- abracadaniel 3y ago
  Because people tie these behaviors to their identity as a sense of their masculinity. It isn’t calling masculinity toxic. Identifying these behaviors as inherently masculine is what is toxic.
  - Natsu 3y ago
    So why wouldn't it be better to attack people's bad behavior than their identity?
    - abracadaniel 3y ago
      Because they’ve made their identity the bad behavior. You can’t change behavior when someone has adopted it as their identity. Any criticism is perceived as a personal attack. Thus, the only approach is to point out that being an asshole as your identity is toxic and to be avoided.
      - Natsu 3y ago
        Everything you just said is only reinforcing my belief that it's best to separate the behavior from the identity at all times, but especially when criticizing it, so that we don't spread the bad idea of linking bad behavior and identity in the first place.
        abracadaniel 3y ago
        That's just a return to the status-quo, which led to where we are. Giving advice of "don't be an asshole" didn't work because people made it their identity. Switching the advice to "don't make being an asshole part of your identity" is at least an attempt to change tack and address the weakness of only targeting behavior.
        Natsu 3y ago
        I can respect teaching people not to make it their identity, but the term "toxic masculinity" does nothing to teach people, it just bundles the toxicity to their identity.
darth_avocado 3y ago
You just described a bunch of traits of a narcissist and assigned them to masculinity. But I’m reality plenty of women display the same traits. > refusing to admit you’re wrong > escalating situations > being overly boastful The reason why people, mostly men, don’t like that term is because it gets thrown around for pretty much anything at this point to mostly put men down. Spreading your legs and holding the door open for someone is considered toxic masculinity.
type0 3y ago
> A lot of people are just triggered by the term for whatever reason. trigger warnings for whatever reason it's a blanket statement, it gets thrown around way too often without apparent reason, that's why Toxic femininity might not be as visible, but in many ways it's more harmful for society because it hinders collaboration on every level
guerrilla 3y ago
> Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boastful, being reluctant to show emotions other than anger. In general, women do all of this all of the time except the last. So you see the problem.

epicureanideal 3y ago

"Machismo" is still a gendered term though. Why not just describe it as "being an asshole", or "stubbornness", or "aggressiveness", or "being disagreeable", "being antisocial", etc?

opportune 3y ago
Well, it's a masculine failure mode of essentially being overly prideful/insecure of maintaining one's sense of masculinity. You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights
- falcolas 3y ago
  > You don't see a lot of women trying to defend their masculine sense of pride by picking fights Why limit this only to "masculine" pride? You absolutely see women picking fights to defend their pride. We just call that behavior "being a Karen" (or "catfights"). Which, being fair, both come with their own misogynistic problems.
abracadaniel 3y ago
Because people tie these behaviors to their identity as a sense of their masculinity. It isn’t calling masculinity toxic. Identifying these behaviors as inherently masculine is what is toxic.
- Natsu 3y ago
  So why wouldn't it be better to attack people's bad behavior than their identity?
  - abracadaniel 3y ago
    Because they’ve made their identity the bad behavior. You can’t change behavior when someone has adopted it as their identity. Any criticism is perceived as a personal attack. Thus, the only approach is to point out that being an asshole as your identity is toxic and to be avoided.
    - Natsu 3y ago
      Everything you just said is only reinforcing my belief that it's best to separate the behavior from the identity at all times, but especially when criticizing it, so that we don't spread the bad idea of linking bad behavior and identity in the first place.
      - abracadaniel 3y ago
        That's just a return to the status-quo, which led to where we are. Giving advice of "don't be an asshole" didn't work because people made it their identity. Switching the advice to "don't make being an asshole part of your identity" is at least an attempt to change tack and address the weakness of only targeting behavior.
        Natsu 3y ago
        I can respect teaching people not to make it their identity, but the term "toxic masculinity" does nothing to teach people, it just bundles the toxicity to their identity.

darth_avocado 3y ago

You just described a bunch of traits of a narcissist and assigned them to masculinity. But I’m reality plenty of women display the same traits. > refusing to admit you’re wrong > escalating situations > being overly boastful The reason why people, mostly men, don’t like that term is because it gets thrown around for pretty much anything at this point to mostly put men down. Spreading your legs and holding the door open for someone is considered toxic masculinity.

type0 3y ago

> A lot of people are just triggered by the term for whatever reason. trigger warnings for whatever reason it's a blanket statement, it gets thrown around way too often without apparent reason, that's why Toxic femininity might not be as visible, but in many ways it's more harmful for society because it hinders collaboration on every level

guerrilla 3y ago

> Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, think things like refusing to admit you're wrong, being overly aggressive and escalating situations, being overly boastful, being reluctant to show emotions other than anger. In general, women do all of this all of the time except the last. So you see the problem.