8 ms·

I won’t dismiss the part about evolutionary pressure favouring those hypermasculine traits, but toxic masculinity is more about critiquing aspects of masculinit

by mikrl 3y ago

I won’t dismiss the part about evolutionary pressure favouring those hypermasculine traits, but toxic masculinity is more about critiquing aspects of masculinity that are improper or inappropriate in a societal setting. I saw a meme that summed it up nicely: “You’re not a gladiator or a spartan warrior who needs war, you’re a middle manager who needs therapy”

hhjinks 3y ago
If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? If these are just individual acts of toxicity, it would be wrong to call it toxic masculinity.
- mikrl 3y ago
  Evolutionary pressure. Society is one abstraction, reproduction is another, and they don’t always mesh nicely. Maybe the perfect society for reproduction is one of polyamorous warlord harems or something (this is a hypothetical) Men optimizing for that status quo would be absolutely lethal in our peaceful monogamous society.
  - darkerside 3y ago
    That used to be the case, but it's not anymore because our society abstraction is powerful enough to stop it
- lmm 3y ago
  > If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? On the male side, prisoners' dilemma. On the female side, tragedy of the commons.
- II2II 3y ago
  There is a lot of pressure to conform within one's peer group from a very young age. It is possible that "nurture" pushes men and women down these destructive paths rather than nature.
Swizec 3y ago
> you’re a middle manager who needs therapy Let me expand on that: “you’re a middle manager who needs therapy” – because we’ve built a society where you can’t fulfill your innate desires. I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. You can’t just take a monkey out of the savannah, put it in a cubicle, then say “you need therapy” when it misbehaves. PS: I’m not saying therapy doesn’t work, just that it feels like we’re using it as a bandaid on a deeper issue. Like, hey, maybe people should lead fulfilling lives instead of using therapy to fit themselves into the box society drew for them.
- mikrl 3y ago
  >I for one am tired of the therapy meme Not like I’ll ever access it (too masc, heh) but I definitely see therapy as a much more positive way to address your emotions than self destructive or violent behaviour. Sports and stuff helps too, maybe martial arts are the masculine equivalent to talk therapy.
- philipkglass 3y ago
  I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. I don't think that the majority of people need therapy. But I've also never met a manager who acted like they were a Spartan going to war. This may well be one of those social bubble sorting issues, where something that is common in one person's experience is very rare in another person's experience.
  - mikrl 3y ago
    It’s not that middle managers act like warriors. It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ and, like the proverbial middle manager, probably just need someone to tell them they aren’t alone and things will be OK in due course, or whatever a therapist does.
    - 3y ago
rowanG077 3y ago
That's pretty rich considering wars are still happening very often. Maybe we should generate a society where a person who has the personality suited for war can live as well as a person who has the personality suited for peace. For one thing is certain, war will come.
jahewson 3y ago
I’m imaging actual gladiators and spartan warriors going into therapy because they want to be middle managers.
- oblio 3y ago
  Well, gladiators for sure would want to. Cushy admin job that doesn't kill you? Sure!
eli_gottlieb 3y ago
Middle managers are some of the nastiest petty tyrants you'll ever meet, and dearly require proper melee combat to teach them that other people are, in fact, human enough to oppose them.
Aerroon 3y ago
Does therapy help? I see this throwaway line of "needing help" or "getting therapy" quite often, but I'm dubious about whether it does anything. Get help is often suggested in response to depression, but the actual treatment by psychiatrists is to basically pick an antidepressant with the help of a game of darts and hope for the best. Repeat until you've tried various options for a few years. Is therapy any more effective than that? Or do they just repeat you into submission until you sing the right tune even if you don't believe in it?
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago
  Therapy hasn't helped me "break down any walls", but I have found it useful at times sharing my troubles with someone because it makes me feel less alone in it all.
- pram 3y ago
  I did therapy for 3 years, 1 year as a teen and 2 years in my early 20s. I had (diagnosed) depression for a decade+ for context. I'll say it: it was completely useless, a total waste of time. I wouldn't consider speaking to a therapist about anything ever again.
- halkony 3y ago
  There are a lot of useless therapies. I've been through several garden variety therapists and the cost was simply not worth it. Part of the problem with therapy is you know nothing about your new therapist, and more often than not the therapist has no idea what you're going through. So you lack the connection. The therapist/client relationship is very narrow and neutered and its easy to waste a lot of time. However -- I did have some breakthroughs with a life coach I found watching youtube vids. It was really helpful for me to go into a therapeutic relationship when I already know I can connect with the coach on a personal level.
- confidantlake 3y ago
  For me it was completely useless. I have tried to find evidence that it helps and have never been able to find any.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
A lot of "middle managers who need therapy" turned real fast into the modern version of "spartan warriors" in Ukraine.

by mikrl 3y ago

hhjinks 3y ago

If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? If these are just individual acts of toxicity, it would be wrong to call it toxic masculinity.

mikrl 3y ago
Evolutionary pressure. Society is one abstraction, reproduction is another, and they don’t always mesh nicely. Maybe the perfect society for reproduction is one of polyamorous warlord harems or something (this is a hypothetical) Men optimizing for that status quo would be absolutely lethal in our peaceful monogamous society.
- darkerside 3y ago
  That used to be the case, but it's not anymore because our society abstraction is powerful enough to stop it
lmm 3y ago
> If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? On the male side, prisoners' dilemma. On the female side, tragedy of the commons.
II2II 3y ago
There is a lot of pressure to conform within one's peer group from a very young age. It is possible that "nurture" pushes men and women down these destructive paths rather than nature.

Swizec 3y ago

> you’re a middle manager who needs therapy Let me expand on that: “you’re a middle manager who needs therapy” – because we’ve built a society where you can’t fulfill your innate desires. I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. You can’t just take a monkey out of the savannah, put it in a cubicle, then say “you need therapy” when it misbehaves. PS: I’m not saying therapy doesn’t work, just that it feels like we’re using it as a bandaid on a deeper issue. Like, hey, maybe people should lead fulfilling lives instead of using therapy to fit themselves into the box society drew for them.

mikrl 3y ago
>I for one am tired of the therapy meme Not like I’ll ever access it (too masc, heh) but I definitely see therapy as a much more positive way to address your emotions than self destructive or violent behaviour. Sports and stuff helps too, maybe martial arts are the masculine equivalent to talk therapy.
philipkglass 3y ago
I for one am tired of the therapy meme. If everyone needs therapy, it’s society that’s wrong. I don't think that the majority of people need therapy. But I've also never met a manager who acted like they were a Spartan going to war. This may well be one of those social bubble sorting issues, where something that is common in one person's experience is very rare in another person's experience.
- mikrl 3y ago
  It’s not that middle managers act like warriors. It’s that there are a small amount of men in the modern world who need a warrior ethos and the ‘tempering fires of warfare’ and other such cringe imagery employed by those pushing hypermasculine ideology. The majority of men don’t need to be ‘redeemed through violence’ and, like the proverbial middle manager, probably just need someone to tell them they aren’t alone and things will be OK in due course, or whatever a therapist does.
  - 3y ago

rowanG077 3y ago

That's pretty rich considering wars are still happening very often. Maybe we should generate a society where a person who has the personality suited for war can live as well as a person who has the personality suited for peace. For one thing is certain, war will come.

jahewson 3y ago

I’m imaging actual gladiators and spartan warriors going into therapy because they want to be middle managers.

oblio 3y ago
Well, gladiators for sure would want to. Cushy admin job that doesn't kill you? Sure!

eli_gottlieb 3y ago

Middle managers are some of the nastiest petty tyrants you'll ever meet, and dearly require proper melee combat to teach them that other people are, in fact, human enough to oppose them.

Aerroon 3y ago

Does therapy help? I see this throwaway line of "needing help" or "getting therapy" quite often, but I'm dubious about whether it does anything. Get help is often suggested in response to depression, but the actual treatment by psychiatrists is to basically pick an antidepressant with the help of a game of darts and hope for the best. Repeat until you've tried various options for a few years. Is therapy any more effective than that? Or do they just repeat you into submission until you sing the right tune even if you don't believe in it?

dumpsterdiver 3y ago
Therapy hasn't helped me "break down any walls", but I have found it useful at times sharing my troubles with someone because it makes me feel less alone in it all.
pram 3y ago
I did therapy for 3 years, 1 year as a teen and 2 years in my early 20s. I had (diagnosed) depression for a decade+ for context. I'll say it: it was completely useless, a total waste of time. I wouldn't consider speaking to a therapist about anything ever again.
halkony 3y ago
There are a lot of useless therapies. I've been through several garden variety therapists and the cost was simply not worth it. Part of the problem with therapy is you know nothing about your new therapist, and more often than not the therapist has no idea what you're going through. So you lack the connection. The therapist/client relationship is very narrow and neutered and its easy to waste a lot of time. However -- I did have some breakthroughs with a life coach I found watching youtube vids. It was really helpful for me to go into a therapeutic relationship when I already know I can connect with the coach on a personal level.
confidantlake 3y ago
For me it was completely useless. I have tried to find evidence that it helps and have never been able to find any.

Der_Einzige 3y ago

A lot of "middle managers who need therapy" turned real fast into the modern version of "spartan warriors" in Ukraine.