4 ms·

What makes you say the problems facing people other than man are far worse? I'm genuinely curious, because often conversation around these topics will go along

What makes you say the problems facing people other than man are far worse? I'm genuinely curious, because often conversation around these topics will go along the lines of "well, women have to worry about getting beaten up" (or (sexually) assaulted, etc), but men have problems too! The above attitude I feel like minimises men's problems - the implicit assumption is that everyone else has it worse, whether that attitude was intended or not. I've done literally no research into the problems these groups face comparatively, but I find it interesting that above case is usually assumed.

throwaway675309 3y ago
I don't wanna get into a whole thing, but if you stop to think for maybe 10 seconds, you'd realize that the problems women face (physically, socially, economically ,etc) are incomparably worse than what men face. - How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? - How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? - How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? - How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges.
- MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
  > are incomparably worse than what men face. Hummm well i guess i am taking the bait. > How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? I don't want to diminish the experience of people in other countries. But comparing acros so many different variable muddy the water. If you gonna bring up women in muslim/arab countries (many of which support the hijab btw), then i will raise you the men currently dying in ukraine and what ever war you want to talk about. Let's focus on the average experience in the US... where we have both enough information and cultural understanding to make good commentary. > - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? Something, something prison... And what about the other kind of assaults... like say murder ? > How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? Touche on this one. Also i would say that women have more control on when/if they want to be parent as opposed to men. And the 18 year child support can be brutal. (Did you know that child support can't be discharged in bankruptcy court ?) > How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? Agree that a travesty. > How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? Yeah this one is a rabit hole. But comparing modern data, and normalizing this is much less pronouced. How about the missing men in univestity etc... etc... > That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges. This must be an american thing, the weird need to diminish or reduce the experience of a certain group. Life sucks, and sucks for a lot of people accros so many different variable. I understand the concept that some issue might be more pressing , but to call someone delusional simply for asking the question is not helful at all...
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  Its a tit for tat and it probably averages out. Everyone has it shitty: - How about the fact that men commit suicide at greater rates than women - How about the fact that men are 10 times more likely to be killed on the job - How about the fact that men are several times more likely to be physically assaulted - How about the fact that men are more likely to die of covid - How about the fact that 3 in 4 homeless people are men We could go on and on like this in an all day pity party if you want? > I don't wanna get into a whole thing Proceeds to get into the whole thing.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Also that most problems women face are also part of related issues for men: the construction of femininity in opposition to masculinity has been the basis of an enormous amount of bullying and emotional trauma for men who are perceived to not adequately meet whatever arbitrary standard of "manliness" is allowed. This should be familiar to most male members of this forum: being the computer nerd was weak, not playing the man's sports was "girly", not meeting body image standards is contrasted to being too feminine. Men who are raped aren't taken seriously at all because of these problems. But that's never getting fixed so long as your only answer (and it's rife in this thread) is to construct these issues in opposition to femininity. Instead everyone can remember one person saying "men suck" in some context, and on that basis they're clamoring to tear down decades of progress on equality. Which isn't going to help any man.
klik99 3y ago
I was wrong to use the word "obviously", and would change it to "in my opinion" if I could still edit that post. And definitely did not intend to minimize mens problems - I'm a man myself and have first hand experience. I've had this conversation with a friend who is a outspoken feminist who I felt erased the problems men faced. I don't have time to show my thoughts with any objective metrics, so I'm just going to lay out how I see things, so this will be touchy-feely. This is merely my opinion and I have no problem with people disagreeing. I think the biggest impact is in how people can function in modern society - pay gap, positions of power, tokenization - a good book is "Invisible Man" by Ralph Waldo Ellison which is about more than being black in America but about being an individual that everyone wants to put in a box or a particular group - he's invisible because people don't see the individual. It's universal, and everyone feels that to some degree, but the degree I feel it as a white male is much smaller. Basically your ability to project your will on the world is easy mode for white male (btw - me). Anecdote alert: For example I was literally just talking to an old friend who I've worked with in the past who is a great architect but kept getting the in-the-middle-of-nowhere projects at a very well known and old NYC firm, so she started her own architecture business and is doing quite well. But not that it makes things easy for men! Because there is also expectation to be a provider, suck up your emotions and be tough. These things, which some point to as "the problem" are harming men as well and should be addressed. And this is where it gets very messy - some of the things that are "evidence" that men are privileged are also things that harm men in non-obvious ways. And as for the "easy to project your will", there is also an expectation that you have to and you're a failure if you don't. Why can't someone live a simple life without feeling like a failure? Ultimately I think the ideal goal should be to not push gender based expectations - both for male and female.
- Panzer04 3y ago
  Thanks for the reply, I get where you're coming from. I think I mostly just wanted to bring up the implicit assumptions that are made about the problems a certain group can have. I suppose a lot of these issues come down to these subtler problems - Men have fewer problems in some senses (physical capability, professional respect, etc) but more in others (generally emotional and relationships), wheas for women it's often the reverse. These sorts of implicit assumptions that exist on a cultural level can be difficult for people of the opposite gender to see or understand.

throwaway675309 3y ago

I don't wanna get into a whole thing, but if you stop to think for maybe 10 seconds, you'd realize that the problems women face (physically, socially, economically ,etc) are incomparably worse than what men face. - How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? - How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? - How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? - How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges.

MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
> are incomparably worse than what men face. Hummm well i guess i am taking the bait. > How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? I don't want to diminish the experience of people in other countries. But comparing acros so many different variable muddy the water. If you gonna bring up women in muslim/arab countries (many of which support the hijab btw), then i will raise you the men currently dying in ukraine and what ever war you want to talk about. Let's focus on the average experience in the US... where we have both enough information and cultural understanding to make good commentary. > - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? Something, something prison... And what about the other kind of assaults... like say murder ? > How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? Touche on this one. Also i would say that women have more control on when/if they want to be parent as opposed to men. And the 18 year child support can be brutal. (Did you know that child support can't be discharged in bankruptcy court ?) > How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? Agree that a travesty. > How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? Yeah this one is a rabit hole. But comparing modern data, and normalizing this is much less pronouced. How about the missing men in univestity etc... etc... > That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges. This must be an american thing, the weird need to diminish or reduce the experience of a certain group. Life sucks, and sucks for a lot of people accros so many different variable. I understand the concept that some issue might be more pressing , but to call someone delusional simply for asking the question is not helful at all...
mikrotikker 3y ago
Its a tit for tat and it probably averages out. Everyone has it shitty: - How about the fact that men commit suicide at greater rates than women - How about the fact that men are 10 times more likely to be killed on the job - How about the fact that men are several times more likely to be physically assaulted - How about the fact that men are more likely to die of covid - How about the fact that 3 in 4 homeless people are men We could go on and on like this in an all day pity party if you want? > I don't wanna get into a whole thing Proceeds to get into the whole thing.
XorNot 3y ago
Also that most problems women face are also part of related issues for men: the construction of femininity in opposition to masculinity has been the basis of an enormous amount of bullying and emotional trauma for men who are perceived to not adequately meet whatever arbitrary standard of "manliness" is allowed. This should be familiar to most male members of this forum: being the computer nerd was weak, not playing the man's sports was "girly", not meeting body image standards is contrasted to being too feminine. Men who are raped aren't taken seriously at all because of these problems. But that's never getting fixed so long as your only answer (and it's rife in this thread) is to construct these issues in opposition to femininity. Instead everyone can remember one person saying "men suck" in some context, and on that basis they're clamoring to tear down decades of progress on equality. Which isn't going to help any man.

klik99 3y ago

I was wrong to use the word "obviously", and would change it to "in my opinion" if I could still edit that post. And definitely did not intend to minimize mens problems - I'm a man myself and have first hand experience. I've had this conversation with a friend who is a outspoken feminist who I felt erased the problems men faced. I don't have time to show my thoughts with any objective metrics, so I'm just going to lay out how I see things, so this will be touchy-feely. This is merely my opinion and I have no problem with people disagreeing. I think the biggest impact is in how people can function in modern society - pay gap, positions of power, tokenization - a good book is "Invisible Man" by Ralph Waldo Ellison which is about more than being black in America but about being an individual that everyone wants to put in a box or a particular group - he's invisible because people don't see the individual. It's universal, and everyone feels that to some degree, but the degree I feel it as a white male is much smaller. Basically your ability to project your will on the world is easy mode for white male (btw - me). Anecdote alert: For example I was literally just talking to an old friend who I've worked with in the past who is a great architect but kept getting the in-the-middle-of-nowhere projects at a very well known and old NYC firm, so she started her own architecture business and is doing quite well. But not that it makes things easy for men! Because there is also expectation to be a provider, suck up your emotions and be tough. These things, which some point to as "the problem" are harming men as well and should be addressed. And this is where it gets very messy - some of the things that are "evidence" that men are privileged are also things that harm men in non-obvious ways. And as for the "easy to project your will", there is also an expectation that you have to and you're a failure if you don't. Why can't someone live a simple life without feeling like a failure? Ultimately I think the ideal goal should be to not push gender based expectations - both for male and female.

Panzer04 3y ago
Thanks for the reply, I get where you're coming from. I think I mostly just wanted to bring up the implicit assumptions that are made about the problems a certain group can have. I suppose a lot of these issues come down to these subtler problems - Men have fewer problems in some senses (physical capability, professional respect, etc) but more in others (generally emotional and relationships), wheas for women it's often the reverse. These sorts of implicit assumptions that exist on a cultural level can be difficult for people of the opposite gender to see or understand.