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This plays out at all levels. I felt extremely insulted just a few days ago when my youngest’s preschool held a gathering to celebrate their “graduation” to pre

This plays out at all levels. I felt extremely insulted just a few days ago when my youngest’s preschool held a gathering to celebrate their “graduation” to pre-school. At least 4 times mothers were called on to step forward— once to have a song sung to them, another to receive a flower, etc. Fathers were not mentioned at all. This prompted me to look around, get a rough sense of the distribution… Counting the kids & counting the male attendees, I can’t say for sure that all were fathers but it roughly balanced the # of kids.

foogazi 3y ago
[flagged]
- mattdeboard 3y ago
  So would you say that the commenter you’re replying to needs to stop complaining and just fix his own problems? And that in general men need to quit talking about feelings of sadness and disappointment (aka throwing a pity party)? Because, my guy, lol. The irony is absolutely impeccable.
  - MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - foogazi 3y ago
    They are complaining but didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency Only thing left is complain why they didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around
    - mattdeboard 3y ago
      > didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency > > Only thing left is complain why they didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around Which is a totally valid complaint man. That’s what the whole fuckin article is about. That’s what all this is about. A man is allowed to feel disappointed people didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around, and he’s allowed to express that disappointment out loud. You’re literally perpetuating the cycle by enforcing toxic ideas of masculinity, this idea that you either fix your own problems or shut the fuck up about them. It’s a self-defeating way to live. Edit: your comment is god-tier irony because “not being thought of when you’re not around” is like the core of a lot of men’s emotional wounds. As in, a child’s experience of emotional neglect is the caregiver not thinking of the child when they’re not around, so the fact you are holding up the idea of complaining about that for ridicule is so on-the-nose it is actually hurting my soul on your behalf.
    - kashunstva 3y ago
      > They are complaining but didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency He noted only that the fathers were not recognized during the assembly. We know nothing about who was invited to participate in the planning.
    - ineedasername 3y ago
      As stated in my other reply, there was no parent participation in the planning of this. It was a done by the preschool in its entirety. No parents, mothers, fathers, or other legal guardians had a part in planning things.
- 93po 3y ago
  I'd encourage you to look up what toxic masculinity is and reflect on it
- ineedasername 3y ago
  There were no graduation planning meetings. It was not in any way an event planned by the parents. It was completely planned by the school.
bergerjac 3y ago
Did you communicate to the organizer about this? In modern society we're normally conditioned to avoid confrontation, but it's the best way to initiate a proactive solution.
- ianai 3y ago
  The problem with confrontation is people tend to start acting as if they’re playing a role that they don’t know how to leave. As though they’ve seen in movies and places where two sides get ramped up, confront one another, but there’s usually not an equally powerful resolution to model. It’s just: get angry and be blatant/audacious. Notably in movies violent resolutions are much more common as the ultimate resolution, too, and that doesn’t leave much as a compromise or alternative-so just stay pissed/audacious/etc. I don’t know if I have a suggestion to OP. One option would be to offer to contribute to buying the flowers next time. That’s a soft way to engage and remind there’s others in the audience not being celebrated. Personally, I’d probably be put off by the whole thing and just let them have their moments. Or bring dark chocolate. Chocolate because theobromine acts a little like a happy “everything’s good” buzz for people and men might tend towards dark chocolate over milk. But bring some milk chocolate too-shows you’re being inclusive.
- ineedasername 3y ago
  Nothing to be done at this point: the event is over and my child is done with that school.
m5r 3y ago
[flagged]
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  It isn’t meaningless. Those children are being told and showed repeatedly that their moms are their primary parents, and dads are an afterthought. Men are secondary parents in a lot of households, and it’s not okay. Both for dads themselves and their kids.
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    …and unfair to mothers, too!
    - steve_adams_86 3y ago
      Great point. So long as it’s unbalanced, it’s a detriment to everyone including the kids.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    After decades of fathers spending their lives at work, and leaving the household and childcare to the mothers, I guess the solution might be easy enough to figure out.
    - steve_adams_86 3y ago
      I’m not sure if it’s intended, but this makes it sound as though the solution is an individual one that easy to uncover. Apologies if I’m misinterpreting that. If I’m right though, I’d say that it isn’t easy at all, and there are many systemic pressures which make the solution difficult for individuals.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        The easy, as in dads can do the se job when it comes to staying home and caring for children as moms can. There are two things standing in the way, the pay gap and social pressure. The latter so, is completely up to the individual to ignore.
Neil44 3y ago
My daughter's teacher this year just straight blanks me at the parent consultations. Like, it's uncomfortable. Speaking to some other fathers it's not just me. But I am still undecided over whether it's worth complaining as her holding her hands up and saying mea culpa seems somewhat unlikely and I feel I would quickly become the bad guy.
- cies 3y ago
  > My daughter's teacher [...] it's not just me Maybe it was just her though. I'd talk to the school director over this.
  - Neil44 3y ago
    You're not wrong but at the same time she otherwise seems to do a good job with my daughter which I'm keen not to in any way get in the way of by making this about me.
    - ycombobreaker 3y ago
      It's not about you, though; it's about all of the fathers that will follow you. Does your partner see this dynamic as well? Will she support you by redirecting conversations to force your inclusion? That's where I would start, if you don't want to throw her under the bus with her admin.
      - Neil44 3y ago
        Your point is correct of course and I have considered that. Where my partner stands is complicated because I share parents evenings with my ex, whose support I can not rely on to put it mildly.
    - ttrmw 3y ago
      She is teaching your daughter that treating you (or other men) this way is acceptable. I think it's worth the intervention for that reason.
prmoustache 3y ago
OTOH I was the only male in my daughter's classes whatsapp group for parents. Most fathers seemed to be glad the mother was handling that shit. And I doubt I was the only divorced father with shared custody.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  What is a parents' WhatsApp group for?
  - alphager 3y ago
    From things like "my son left his math book in school, can someone send a picture of page 23 so we can prepare for the test" to "my daughter didn't write down the homework assignments; can someone send them" to organizing the class outing, discussing general issues with teachers or the schools organization.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      Doesn't this just delay learning about responsibility and consequences until later, when the consequences might actually be real? Parents getting this involved in the children's learning seems really, really weird to me.
      - prmoustache 3y ago
        We are talking primary school, when kids don't have their own phone/computer and it is unrelated to taking responsibility and consequences. If my daughter ask me to relay a question/message because she didn't wrote well / forgot a detail, she is actually taking responsibility for it.
      - alphager 3y ago
        This is the content I've seen so far, limited to primary school children. I'm German so my view may not be the prevailing one in the US, but I see my role as including making sure that the kids get a proper education. This includes making sure they are doing their homework and are revising for tests. The consequence of forgetting (or "forgetting" ;) ) to write down their homework assignments or their books is not a work-free afternoon, an inconsequential negative remark by their teacher or a slightly worse test score (I'd argue that at primary school age consequences have to follow directly; a delayed test score does not register). The first time it happened, they got a friendly expansion of the expectations. The second time an expression of disappointment. There hasn't been a third time.
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
It is annoying ( effectively being excluded ), but do we need social validation to do our job ( raising kids )? Now, if the teacher is withholding information, that is a different story.
- ineedasername 3y ago
  It’s not only about how the father feels in a situation like this. It’s also about the message that sends to the child, who has now seen (and will continue to see throughout their childhood) subtle messaging about the role and responsibilities that each parent takes on, and the perceived value of each parent in caring for them. A message that is heavily imbalanced, yet will influence their own view on things as they grow up.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    Value is in the eye of the beholder. Granted, I absolutely hear what you are saying. Not to search very far, I have cousins, who managed to get bamboozled their father was an absent father, because he was a trucker and clearly did not love them enough ( apart from ,naturally, securing their future several times over, but as kids they could not understand it -- and their mother certainly was keen to capitalize on it ).

foogazi 3y ago

[flagged]

mattdeboard 3y ago
So would you say that the commenter you’re replying to needs to stop complaining and just fix his own problems? And that in general men need to quit talking about feelings of sadness and disappointment (aka throwing a pity party)? Because, my guy, lol. The irony is absolutely impeccable.
- MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
  [flagged]
- foogazi 3y ago
  They are complaining but didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency Only thing left is complain why they didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around
  - mattdeboard 3y ago
    > didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency > > Only thing left is complain why they didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around Which is a totally valid complaint man. That’s what the whole fuckin article is about. That’s what all this is about. A man is allowed to feel disappointed people didn’t think of him when he wasn’t around, and he’s allowed to express that disappointment out loud. You’re literally perpetuating the cycle by enforcing toxic ideas of masculinity, this idea that you either fix your own problems or shut the fuck up about them. It’s a self-defeating way to live. Edit: your comment is god-tier irony because “not being thought of when you’re not around” is like the core of a lot of men’s emotional wounds. As in, a child’s experience of emotional neglect is the caregiver not thinking of the child when they’re not around, so the fact you are holding up the idea of complaining about that for ridicule is so on-the-nose it is actually hurting my soul on your behalf.
  - kashunstva 3y ago
    > They are complaining but didn’t participate in the planning and therefore surrendered all agency He noted only that the fathers were not recognized during the assembly. We know nothing about who was invited to participate in the planning.
  - ineedasername 3y ago
    As stated in my other reply, there was no parent participation in the planning of this. It was a done by the preschool in its entirety. No parents, mothers, fathers, or other legal guardians had a part in planning things.
93po 3y ago
I'd encourage you to look up what toxic masculinity is and reflect on it
ineedasername 3y ago
There were no graduation planning meetings. It was not in any way an event planned by the parents. It was completely planned by the school.

bergerjac 3y ago

Did you communicate to the organizer about this? In modern society we're normally conditioned to avoid confrontation, but it's the best way to initiate a proactive solution.

ianai 3y ago
The problem with confrontation is people tend to start acting as if they’re playing a role that they don’t know how to leave. As though they’ve seen in movies and places where two sides get ramped up, confront one another, but there’s usually not an equally powerful resolution to model. It’s just: get angry and be blatant/audacious. Notably in movies violent resolutions are much more common as the ultimate resolution, too, and that doesn’t leave much as a compromise or alternative-so just stay pissed/audacious/etc. I don’t know if I have a suggestion to OP. One option would be to offer to contribute to buying the flowers next time. That’s a soft way to engage and remind there’s others in the audience not being celebrated. Personally, I’d probably be put off by the whole thing and just let them have their moments. Or bring dark chocolate. Chocolate because theobromine acts a little like a happy “everything’s good” buzz for people and men might tend towards dark chocolate over milk. But bring some milk chocolate too-shows you’re being inclusive.
ineedasername 3y ago
Nothing to be done at this point: the event is over and my child is done with that school.

m5r 3y ago

[flagged]

steve_adams_86 3y ago
It isn’t meaningless. Those children are being told and showed repeatedly that their moms are their primary parents, and dads are an afterthought. Men are secondary parents in a lot of households, and it’s not okay. Both for dads themselves and their kids.
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  …and unfair to mothers, too!
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    Great point. So long as it’s unbalanced, it’s a detriment to everyone including the kids.
- hef19898 3y ago
  After decades of fathers spending their lives at work, and leaving the household and childcare to the mothers, I guess the solution might be easy enough to figure out.
  - steve_adams_86 3y ago
    I’m not sure if it’s intended, but this makes it sound as though the solution is an individual one that easy to uncover. Apologies if I’m misinterpreting that. If I’m right though, I’d say that it isn’t easy at all, and there are many systemic pressures which make the solution difficult for individuals.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      The easy, as in dads can do the se job when it comes to staying home and caring for children as moms can. There are two things standing in the way, the pay gap and social pressure. The latter so, is completely up to the individual to ignore.

Neil44 3y ago

My daughter's teacher this year just straight blanks me at the parent consultations. Like, it's uncomfortable. Speaking to some other fathers it's not just me. But I am still undecided over whether it's worth complaining as her holding her hands up and saying mea culpa seems somewhat unlikely and I feel I would quickly become the bad guy.

cies 3y ago
> My daughter's teacher [...] it's not just me Maybe it was just her though. I'd talk to the school director over this.
- Neil44 3y ago
  You're not wrong but at the same time she otherwise seems to do a good job with my daughter which I'm keen not to in any way get in the way of by making this about me.
  - ycombobreaker 3y ago
    It's not about you, though; it's about all of the fathers that will follow you. Does your partner see this dynamic as well? Will she support you by redirecting conversations to force your inclusion? That's where I would start, if you don't want to throw her under the bus with her admin.
    - Neil44 3y ago
      Your point is correct of course and I have considered that. Where my partner stands is complicated because I share parents evenings with my ex, whose support I can not rely on to put it mildly.
  - ttrmw 3y ago
    She is teaching your daughter that treating you (or other men) this way is acceptable. I think it's worth the intervention for that reason.

prmoustache 3y ago

OTOH I was the only male in my daughter's classes whatsapp group for parents. Most fathers seemed to be glad the mother was handling that shit. And I doubt I was the only divorced father with shared custody.

globular-toast 3y ago
What is a parents' WhatsApp group for?
- alphager 3y ago
  From things like "my son left his math book in school, can someone send a picture of page 23 so we can prepare for the test" to "my daughter didn't write down the homework assignments; can someone send them" to organizing the class outing, discussing general issues with teachers or the schools organization.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Doesn't this just delay learning about responsibility and consequences until later, when the consequences might actually be real? Parents getting this involved in the children's learning seems really, really weird to me.
    - prmoustache 3y ago
      We are talking primary school, when kids don't have their own phone/computer and it is unrelated to taking responsibility and consequences. If my daughter ask me to relay a question/message because she didn't wrote well / forgot a detail, she is actually taking responsibility for it.
    - alphager 3y ago
      This is the content I've seen so far, limited to primary school children. I'm German so my view may not be the prevailing one in the US, but I see my role as including making sure that the kids get a proper education. This includes making sure they are doing their homework and are revising for tests. The consequence of forgetting (or "forgetting" ;) ) to write down their homework assignments or their books is not a work-free afternoon, an inconsequential negative remark by their teacher or a slightly worse test score (I'd argue that at primary school age consequences have to follow directly; a delayed test score does not register). The first time it happened, they got a friendly expansion of the expectations. The second time an expression of disappointment. There hasn't been a third time.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

It is annoying ( effectively being excluded ), but do we need social validation to do our job ( raising kids )? Now, if the teacher is withholding information, that is a different story.

ineedasername 3y ago
It’s not only about how the father feels in a situation like this. It’s also about the message that sends to the child, who has now seen (and will continue to see throughout their childhood) subtle messaging about the role and responsibilities that each parent takes on, and the perceived value of each parent in caring for them. A message that is heavily imbalanced, yet will influence their own view on things as they grow up.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  Value is in the eye of the beholder. Granted, I absolutely hear what you are saying. Not to search very far, I have cousins, who managed to get bamboozled their father was an absent father, because he was a trucker and clearly did not love them enough ( apart from ,naturally, securing their future several times over, but as kids they could not understand it -- and their mother certainly was keen to capitalize on it ).