4 ms·

Yeah exactly. I let this kind of thing slide because obviously the problems facing minorities/women as groups are far worse than the problems facing men as a gr

by klik99 3y ago

Yeah exactly. I let this kind of thing slide because obviously the problems facing minorities/women as groups are far worse than the problems facing men as a group, but just shifting the conversation from "I think group A of people is the problem" to "I think group B of people is the problem" is creating downstream problems. And there are very real issues facing men - suicide rates are dramatic enough to indicate that. I think the goal should be reduce social/economic/criminal expectations based on what group(s) a particular individual is lumped in, because we are all simultaneously part of, victims of, and perpetrators of a system that damages people, though obviously some groups are hurt way more than others. Public opinion oversimplifies things to good vs bad and works like a pendulum, and I just hope it doesn't swing too much in the opposite direction. If people saying "men suck" is a temporary by-product of addressing systemic gender inequality then that's a price I'm willing to pay. I've benefited plenty from the power of average white male mediocrity.

FeistySkink 3y ago
There's a 5:1 male:female suicide rate in my home country. This has been going on for decades. "Temporarily" saying "men suck" doesn't help.
- camjohnson26 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
    ..and what percentage of men commit homicides? And who are the primary victims of homicides?
  - znpy 3y ago
    Do you also have stats about the victims too?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - the_jesus_villa 3y ago
    This is a perilous line of thinking! Let's try it with race - "Black homicide rates are seven to eight times those of whites". And yet, here in Latin America, there are posters in every major city decrying the crisis of "femicidio" (murder of women). Not because they are disproportionately victims (quite the opposite), but because that's what's interesting to the American NGOs that decide what political issues are trendy and important.
  - svnt 3y ago
    I am not excusing homicides, but can you imagine that perhaps being emotionally illiterate and constantly put down might cause someone to be more likely to become violent? When they cannot defend themselves in all of the social discussion, bargaining, and gossip that is used for control of their lives, the feeling of helplessness can become overwhelming. And if a confrontation becomes violent, probabilistically the bigger, stronger one will most likely win. In a male-female dynamic where death is the outcome, the origin of the conflict is rarely considered. In many countries girls and women still need education for reading and written communication. I think in every country boys and men should receive education for emotional self-understanding and communication.
  - theodric 3y ago
    Men are just really good at cides in general
- klik99 3y ago
  I really hate to be put in the position of looking like I'm minimizing this, because I made the same point in my post that suicide rates are an obvious indicator that there is something wrong here. But just want to point out that this is not a new thing, and I don't think it was caused by people saying "men suck". https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-s... But I'm with you in the frustration that this isn't talked about.
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    To add: a 3-5x ratio of male to female suicides exists in almost every other country too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
  - dumpsterdiver 3y ago
    No, I don't think you've minimized the issue at all. In fact, you've highlighted the fact that men have always struggled with mental health, and if anything we need more support, not people telling us that we should die.
Panzer04 3y ago
What makes you say the problems facing people other than man are far worse? I'm genuinely curious, because often conversation around these topics will go along the lines of "well, women have to worry about getting beaten up" (or (sexually) assaulted, etc), but men have problems too! The above attitude I feel like minimises men's problems - the implicit assumption is that everyone else has it worse, whether that attitude was intended or not. I've done literally no research into the problems these groups face comparatively, but I find it interesting that above case is usually assumed.
- throwaway675309 3y ago
  I don't wanna get into a whole thing, but if you stop to think for maybe 10 seconds, you'd realize that the problems women face (physically, socially, economically ,etc) are incomparably worse than what men face. - How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? - How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? - How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? - How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges.
  - MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
    > are incomparably worse than what men face. Hummm well i guess i am taking the bait. > How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? I don't want to diminish the experience of people in other countries. But comparing acros so many different variable muddy the water. If you gonna bring up women in muslim/arab countries (many of which support the hijab btw), then i will raise you the men currently dying in ukraine and what ever war you want to talk about. Let's focus on the average experience in the US... where we have both enough information and cultural understanding to make good commentary. > - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? Something, something prison... And what about the other kind of assaults... like say murder ? > How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? Touche on this one. Also i would say that women have more control on when/if they want to be parent as opposed to men. And the 18 year child support can be brutal. (Did you know that child support can't be discharged in bankruptcy court ?) > How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? Agree that a travesty. > How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? Yeah this one is a rabit hole. But comparing modern data, and normalizing this is much less pronouced. How about the missing men in univestity etc... etc... > That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges. This must be an american thing, the weird need to diminish or reduce the experience of a certain group. Life sucks, and sucks for a lot of people accros so many different variable. I understand the concept that some issue might be more pressing , but to call someone delusional simply for asking the question is not helful at all...

by klik99 3y ago

FeistySkink 3y ago

There's a 5:1 male:female suicide rate in my home country. This has been going on for decades. "Temporarily" saying "men suck" doesn't help.

camjohnson26 3y ago
[flagged]
- BlargMcLarg 3y ago
  ..and what percentage of men commit homicides? And who are the primary victims of homicides?
- znpy 3y ago
  Do you also have stats about the victims too?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- the_jesus_villa 3y ago
  This is a perilous line of thinking! Let's try it with race - "Black homicide rates are seven to eight times those of whites". And yet, here in Latin America, there are posters in every major city decrying the crisis of "femicidio" (murder of women). Not because they are disproportionately victims (quite the opposite), but because that's what's interesting to the American NGOs that decide what political issues are trendy and important.
- svnt 3y ago
  I am not excusing homicides, but can you imagine that perhaps being emotionally illiterate and constantly put down might cause someone to be more likely to become violent? When they cannot defend themselves in all of the social discussion, bargaining, and gossip that is used for control of their lives, the feeling of helplessness can become overwhelming. And if a confrontation becomes violent, probabilistically the bigger, stronger one will most likely win. In a male-female dynamic where death is the outcome, the origin of the conflict is rarely considered. In many countries girls and women still need education for reading and written communication. I think in every country boys and men should receive education for emotional self-understanding and communication.
- theodric 3y ago
  Men are just really good at cides in general
klik99 3y ago
I really hate to be put in the position of looking like I'm minimizing this, because I made the same point in my post that suicide rates are an obvious indicator that there is something wrong here. But just want to point out that this is not a new thing, and I don't think it was caused by people saying "men suck". https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-s... But I'm with you in the frustration that this isn't talked about.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  To add: a 3-5x ratio of male to female suicides exists in almost every other country too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago
  No, I don't think you've minimized the issue at all. In fact, you've highlighted the fact that men have always struggled with mental health, and if anything we need more support, not people telling us that we should die.

Panzer04 3y ago

What makes you say the problems facing people other than man are far worse? I'm genuinely curious, because often conversation around these topics will go along the lines of "well, women have to worry about getting beaten up" (or (sexually) assaulted, etc), but men have problems too! The above attitude I feel like minimises men's problems - the implicit assumption is that everyone else has it worse, whether that attitude was intended or not. I've done literally no research into the problems these groups face comparatively, but I find it interesting that above case is usually assumed.

throwaway675309 3y ago
I don't wanna get into a whole thing, but if you stop to think for maybe 10 seconds, you'd realize that the problems women face (physically, socially, economically ,etc) are incomparably worse than what men face. - How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? - How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? - How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? - How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges.
- MyShawdowySelf 3y ago
  > are incomparably worse than what men face. Hummm well i guess i am taking the bait. > How about the fact that in some countries women can't even show their hair, have the right to drive or vote? I don't want to diminish the experience of people in other countries. But comparing acros so many different variable muddy the water. If you gonna bring up women in muslim/arab countries (many of which support the hijab btw), then i will raise you the men currently dying in ukraine and what ever war you want to talk about. Let's focus on the average experience in the US... where we have both enough information and cultural understanding to make good commentary. > - How about the fact that women are several times more likely to be sexually assaulted? Something, something prison... And what about the other kind of assaults... like say murder ? > How about the fact that women have to worry about potential unwanted pregnancy? Touche on this one. Also i would say that women have more control on when/if they want to be parent as opposed to men. And the 18 year child support can be brutal. (Did you know that child support can't be discharged in bankruptcy court ?) > How about the fact that abortion laws are being repealed across the United States? Agree that a travesty. > How about the glass ceiling and the fact that women are paid less for the same jobs across many industries? Yeah this one is a rabit hole. But comparing modern data, and normalizing this is much less pronouced. How about the missing men in univestity etc... etc... > That's not to say that men don't have their own challenges as well, but it's borderline delusional if you think that men and women face the same level of challenges. This must be an american thing, the weird need to diminish or reduce the experience of a certain group. Life sucks, and sucks for a lot of people accros so many different variable. I understand the concept that some issue might be more pressing , but to call someone delusional simply for asking the question is not helful at all...