5 ms·

We don't need a critical theory of boyhood, we just need to stop institutionally empowering people who hate their dads. I know many good men, and the defining

We don't need a critical theory of boyhood, we just need to stop institutionally empowering people who hate their dads. I know many good men, and the defining characteristic of every single one of them is that regardless of who their father was, they accept him, and by extension they accept themselves. If you are still mad at him or have contempt for him, I recommend considering how it's manifesting in your beliefs about the world before even thinking about problematizing boyhood. Obviously I'm quite suspicious of adults talking about how to raise boys, but only because the only problem they should be trying to solve at all is how to be a worthy example, and anything else is a substitute for that essential element. But the "concern" about boys is just another form aggression against them, imo.

fatherlessthrow 3y ago
Provocative notion, but I agree. n = 1 : no father, but had some stabilizing male influences in my formative years. People without good enough “father figures” turn out emotionally volatile. I see it in myself, and I see it in others. Sometimes, emotions should be observed and not yielded to. “Toxic masculinity” is just taking this to the extreme of disregarding all emotions. “Toxic femininity” is just yielding to all of one’s emotions. It mirrors the narcissist:BPD relationships (absent, cold, and self-absorbed man; next to the hysterical, ever-present, and needy woman). A healthy person has cultivated both aspects of themselves in moderation (learning to listen to and identify one’s emotions, and having the good judgement to know when they should and shouldn’t be allowed to continue) — this is usually best done by emulating others with this healthy outlook, most commonly with a healthy mother and father (but with the dissolution of gender norms, gender doesn’t matter on the surface, so long as the people involved have nurtured both parts well). The best way to raise boys is in a village with all sorts of people to learn from. The worst way is to neglect them and let them figure out life for themselves.
- motohagiography 3y ago
  "Toxic mascilinity" is a canard, and unless that father figure was an actual man respected by other men, they were probably just in search of a hit of narcissistic supply (or worse) from a child in need. Some agony aunt of whatever sex that's always around when the chips are down because it makes them feel needed is a just another predator. The best way to raise boys is to become a good man.
seattle_spring 3y ago
Err… what? So people with abusive or absent dads should just forgive and love them?
- moron4hire 3y ago
  That's not at all what GP said. They said "accept". For example, that could mean accepting that your father was a piece of shit and sloughing him off, out of your life. At some point, one has to stop letting the damages of the past continue to damage ones self.
  - lisasays 3y ago
    They said "accept". They said "accept him", as a direct object. Not "accept the fact that he had negative qualities", which is something entirely different.
  - turrican 3y ago
    I would agree with you. The most important person I hurt when holding a grudge is myself. Much better to do my best to forgive, maybe forget, and move on with my life (with or without that person).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- lmm 3y ago
  Love them, no. Make their peace with what happened, accept that they can't change it, and move on, yes.
  - noname2021 3y ago
    This is a lot easier said than done. I say this from first hand experience. I've been screwed a few times so far and generally managed to make my piece with most of those experiences except the abuse and apathy from my parents
    - 3y ago
makeitdouble 3y ago
> I know many good men, and the defining characteristic of every single one of them is That would stand if you considered every guy talking shit about their father as "bad" men, regardless of how they behave otherwise. I agree having a settle relationship with one's father is better, but people with legitimate grief against their father and having objective disgust about what they did as human beings shouldn't be a disqualifying situation. I'm also a bit perplexed by the opposition between hating someone and accepting them. You can acknowledge what someone did for you, see where they come from and accept they are who they are, while hating their guts.
- htag 3y ago
  Hate implies resistance, while acceptance has no resistance. It's this resistance that manifests itself in how they treat men in general.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    Someone who hates how their father behaved and treated them, and put their soul into being better as a human being would still fit that "resistance" theme. That resistance could totally manifest in them not engaging in aggressive or corrosive behavior toward other men, if that's part of what they hated in their father.
lisasays 3y ago
Only problem is - objectively some dads are just no damn good. Are their children supposed to "accept" him regardless, and feel bad about themselves if they can't?
- falcolas 3y ago
  As someone who fully supports ejecting toxic relatives - including fathers and mothers - from their adult lives, no, they should not feel bad if they can't or won't accept their parents' toxicity. Keeping toxic people in your life, regardless of their gender, is not something that somehow makes you a better or stronger person. And most psychologists with licenses agree.
- dleslie 3y ago
  Often we hold on too long because we cannot accept that there will never be a "normal", healthy future for the relationship. Letting go, and cutting them off can be an expression of acceptance. And it's important to accept those things we cannot change, lest they torment us.
- motohagiography 3y ago
  Their children feel bad about themselves because they can't accept who their fathers were. In these offspring, that hate is always there somewhere and comes out in other ways, directed at other things, often outgroups. An antidote is Blaise Pascal's observation that, "To understand is to forgive," which has a lot of depth to it. The animus in the culture right now is divided between those who have some acceptance of their fathers, and those who don't. It's not just a right/left thing either, as that animus decides whether someone chooses to be an unworthy person who blames, betrays, and justifies their own cruelty to others because of what they imagine they suffered themselves - or not. Understand who he was and consider that a lot of the anger at "The World," was really just pent up anger at him. Personally, I think a key role of a father is to moderate the urges for cruelty, vanity, conceit, self pity, and other vices that mothers often overlook and forgive, and mainly by example.
  - lisasays 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
CJefferson 3y ago
Maybe the people who had dads worth hating don't turn out well, and those with dads worth accepting have good outcomes -- exactly part of what the linked article suggests!
core-utility 3y ago
I'm late to the party on this, but the first thing that comes to mind with your comment is a comedian by the name of Taylor Tomlinson. She used to be a great balance of young, self-deprecating humor while mixing a healthy amount of family drama in. Her recent tour, however, was just depressing. Constant beratement of her dad in joke after joke. Much of the audience laughs because they feel the same. I won't pretend to know her family struggles, but the public lynching of present fathers is becoming a strong dark theme.
pierat 3y ago
My dad did the following when I was growing up: At 5yo, he threatened to take me to the sheriff's and adopt me out because I was "horrible". Was told constantly to "man up", and ignore any sort of emotions I was having. He also beat me. Naturally, that was perfectly acceptable in the 80's, even in public. Instead, it was called "spanking". He would buy toys, then take them away to take a hammer to them, or otherwise destroy them in front of me. Told me that I'd never amount to anything and that I should just join the military cause thats where stupid people go. Anything bad that happened to me was always my fault. Didn't matter what it was. My fault. It also didn't work out that my mother was/is an enabler and a narcissist (and, well, abused by him too). I don't care what people call this. Patriarchy, etc. Those're just labels. But did they hurt me until I figured out how to undo the damage of childhood? Damn straight they did. And I wont perpetuate these abuses on any other. And I've met people like you, motohagiography , that defend these sorts of abuses as the general mantra "man up". I find defending obvious assaults and child abuses to be disgusting. And, well, burying my dad did finally put a nail in that coffin, so to speak.

fatherlessthrow 3y ago

Provocative notion, but I agree. n = 1 : no father, but had some stabilizing male influences in my formative years. People without good enough “father figures” turn out emotionally volatile. I see it in myself, and I see it in others. Sometimes, emotions should be observed and not yielded to. “Toxic masculinity” is just taking this to the extreme of disregarding all emotions. “Toxic femininity” is just yielding to all of one’s emotions. It mirrors the narcissist:BPD relationships (absent, cold, and self-absorbed man; next to the hysterical, ever-present, and needy woman). A healthy person has cultivated both aspects of themselves in moderation (learning to listen to and identify one’s emotions, and having the good judgement to know when they should and shouldn’t be allowed to continue) — this is usually best done by emulating others with this healthy outlook, most commonly with a healthy mother and father (but with the dissolution of gender norms, gender doesn’t matter on the surface, so long as the people involved have nurtured both parts well). The best way to raise boys is in a village with all sorts of people to learn from. The worst way is to neglect them and let them figure out life for themselves.

motohagiography 3y ago
"Toxic mascilinity" is a canard, and unless that father figure was an actual man respected by other men, they were probably just in search of a hit of narcissistic supply (or worse) from a child in need. Some agony aunt of whatever sex that's always around when the chips are down because it makes them feel needed is a just another predator. The best way to raise boys is to become a good man.

seattle_spring 3y ago

Err… what? So people with abusive or absent dads should just forgive and love them?

moron4hire 3y ago
That's not at all what GP said. They said "accept". For example, that could mean accepting that your father was a piece of shit and sloughing him off, out of your life. At some point, one has to stop letting the damages of the past continue to damage ones self.
- lisasays 3y ago
  They said "accept". They said "accept him", as a direct object. Not "accept the fact that he had negative qualities", which is something entirely different.
- turrican 3y ago
  I would agree with you. The most important person I hurt when holding a grudge is myself. Much better to do my best to forgive, maybe forget, and move on with my life (with or without that person).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lmm 3y ago
Love them, no. Make their peace with what happened, accept that they can't change it, and move on, yes.
- noname2021 3y ago
  This is a lot easier said than done. I say this from first hand experience. I've been screwed a few times so far and generally managed to make my piece with most of those experiences except the abuse and apathy from my parents
  - 3y ago

makeitdouble 3y ago

> I know many good men, and the defining characteristic of every single one of them is That would stand if you considered every guy talking shit about their father as "bad" men, regardless of how they behave otherwise. I agree having a settle relationship with one's father is better, but people with legitimate grief against their father and having objective disgust about what they did as human beings shouldn't be a disqualifying situation. I'm also a bit perplexed by the opposition between hating someone and accepting them. You can acknowledge what someone did for you, see where they come from and accept they are who they are, while hating their guts.

htag 3y ago
Hate implies resistance, while acceptance has no resistance. It's this resistance that manifests itself in how they treat men in general.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Someone who hates how their father behaved and treated them, and put their soul into being better as a human being would still fit that "resistance" theme. That resistance could totally manifest in them not engaging in aggressive or corrosive behavior toward other men, if that's part of what they hated in their father.

lisasays 3y ago

Only problem is - objectively some dads are just no damn good. Are their children supposed to "accept" him regardless, and feel bad about themselves if they can't?

falcolas 3y ago
As someone who fully supports ejecting toxic relatives - including fathers and mothers - from their adult lives, no, they should not feel bad if they can't or won't accept their parents' toxicity. Keeping toxic people in your life, regardless of their gender, is not something that somehow makes you a better or stronger person. And most psychologists with licenses agree.
dleslie 3y ago
Often we hold on too long because we cannot accept that there will never be a "normal", healthy future for the relationship. Letting go, and cutting them off can be an expression of acceptance. And it's important to accept those things we cannot change, lest they torment us.
motohagiography 3y ago
Their children feel bad about themselves because they can't accept who their fathers were. In these offspring, that hate is always there somewhere and comes out in other ways, directed at other things, often outgroups. An antidote is Blaise Pascal's observation that, "To understand is to forgive," which has a lot of depth to it. The animus in the culture right now is divided between those who have some acceptance of their fathers, and those who don't. It's not just a right/left thing either, as that animus decides whether someone chooses to be an unworthy person who blames, betrays, and justifies their own cruelty to others because of what they imagine they suffered themselves - or not. Understand who he was and consider that a lot of the anger at "The World," was really just pent up anger at him. Personally, I think a key role of a father is to moderate the urges for cruelty, vanity, conceit, self pity, and other vices that mothers often overlook and forgive, and mainly by example.
- lisasays 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

CJefferson 3y ago

Maybe the people who had dads worth hating don't turn out well, and those with dads worth accepting have good outcomes -- exactly part of what the linked article suggests!

core-utility 3y ago

I'm late to the party on this, but the first thing that comes to mind with your comment is a comedian by the name of Taylor Tomlinson. She used to be a great balance of young, self-deprecating humor while mixing a healthy amount of family drama in. Her recent tour, however, was just depressing. Constant beratement of her dad in joke after joke. Much of the audience laughs because they feel the same. I won't pretend to know her family struggles, but the public lynching of present fathers is becoming a strong dark theme.

pierat 3y ago

My dad did the following when I was growing up: At 5yo, he threatened to take me to the sheriff's and adopt me out because I was "horrible". Was told constantly to "man up", and ignore any sort of emotions I was having. He also beat me. Naturally, that was perfectly acceptable in the 80's, even in public. Instead, it was called "spanking". He would buy toys, then take them away to take a hammer to them, or otherwise destroy them in front of me. Told me that I'd never amount to anything and that I should just join the military cause thats where stupid people go. Anything bad that happened to me was always my fault. Didn't matter what it was. My fault. It also didn't work out that my mother was/is an enabler and a narcissist (and, well, abused by him too). I don't care what people call this. Patriarchy, etc. Those're just labels. But did they hurt me until I figured out how to undo the damage of childhood? Damn straight they did. And I wont perpetuate these abuses on any other. And I've met people like you, motohagiography , that defend these sorts of abuses as the general mantra "man up". I find defending obvious assaults and child abuses to be disgusting. And, well, burying my dad did finally put a nail in that coffin, so to speak.