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> many young men don’t seek emotional support when they need it because they fear being perceived as weak and ineffective. I would be curious to see a study on

> many young men don’t seek emotional support when they need it because they fear being perceived as weak and ineffective. I would be curious to see a study on what happens to those men who do seek it. As in every last case I anecdotally am aware of, that perception quickly became reality and those men regretted it.

usea 3y ago
Are you saying that (in your experience) young men who seek emotional support become weak and ineffective? Or am I misunderstanding what you've written?
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  > perceived as
  - usea 3y ago
    > that perception quickly became reality
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  I am saying that young men who are seek emotional support then get treated as and viewed as weak and ineffective by those they have sought support from or those around them who know they have sought support, with all the repercussions of that. The men are the same, whether they seek emotional support or not. However, seeking emotional support gets them treated very differently verses not seeking it and it is rarely in a compassionate way.
skyechurch 3y ago
A lot of "problem solving" involving kids means "making the problem go away from the adult's life". E.g. a situation I see played out is kids being told to respond to bullying by acting like they don't care (good advice as far as it goes). If the bullying continues, we hear it isn't a problem because the kids says he doesn't care - which is what we told him to say, true or not. In any case, the problem is solved from the adult's POV - the bullying complaint has disappeared, ticket is moved to resolved. The bullied child now faces his problem alone. Receiving this kind of "support" discourages reaching out for help. (I'm not saying this is specific to boys, don't read too much into pronouns.)
icegreentea2 3y ago
Right, I think the article would completely agree that society as it is right now is not a broadly accepting place for males to be open about their emotional needs. Which is why the call to action isn't for males to be emotionally open in general, but for fathers to try to have more positive and supportive interactions with their sons about emotional needs. And why the article's guide point is 'Encourage them to share their struggles — with you, of course, but also with other trusted adults, a therapist or even friends.', not 'Encourage them to share their struggles with all their acquaintances'.
- joemazerino 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    Actually I think a man who doesn't seriously acknowledge their own self as an emotional being is the opposite of adapting and overcoming. There should be nothing weak about acknowledging when you're too upset to handle a situation. My professional life would be vastly improved if the men around me had the emotional intelligence to realize they're getting worked up about a code review or something and to take a walk for 10 min instead of assuming their anger is always logically justified somehow.
    - joemazerino 3y ago
      Isn't that definition adapt (realize your mind is blocked) and overcome (go for a walk to change your environment)? I think we are saying the same thing. Recognizing your anger has hijacked your reason is exercising resilience over emotion.
  - bitwize 3y ago
    What boys need in order to become men are coping skills. I... didn't really get these growing up. I was simply taught that "men don't cry" and there are consequences for having been seen to cry. I started covering up the times I cried, and then I learned there are consequences for lying, too. I had to figure out a lot on my own, and it took longer than it should have.
znpy 3y ago
Eh, I’m gonna bite the bullet and give a quick answer, based on what’s I’ve seen growing up: Basically you get answers like: “Man up” “Grow a pair” “Boys don’t cry” “Life is harsh, get used to it” Last but not the least: “psychologists are for weak people with mental problems, not for you”. Two more observations again based on my life experience: 1. Weakness is generally accepted in girls/women, largely acknowledged and supported. Can’t say the same for boys/men. 2. Often times I’ve been said the above phrases either by girls/women of my same age or by people like teachers/educators. Basically you end up appearing weak, sometimes get mocked, and in general you’re better off shutting up and keeping stuff inside. Over the years I’ve developed quite a cynicism, that I acknowledge and that (sadly?) works fairly well.
- 93po 3y ago
  I have endless examples of being mocked by my teachers growing up. Including some of your above quotes.
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  I teach my son not cry. I teach him how to conduct violence. I teach him to treat people kindly, never equally. We don't cry because we manage our emotions. We know words cannot physically harm us. If it's truth, acknowledge it. If it's a lie, it can be ignored and the liar pitied. Teaching violence because it teaches respect, physical limits, and healthy lifestyle. We know how to be gentle because we are strong. We will kill bad guys. We will be good guys. Violence can lead to death. We love life and will protect it. A child capable of this kind of violence needs to have their emotions in check. He gets hurt? Ask for a hug. Ask for advice how to win. People aren't equal. We don't pretend. We don't go 100% against smaller or less trained. We don't expect everyone to behave as we do. We don't all value the same things. We can still be friends. We can ignore inequity. Sometimes we have more or can do more than others. We do not boast. Sometimes we have less. We do not whine or envy. He is a man when he no longer has to obey me when he tells me he can be responsible for himself. Until then I get to discipline him and limit his freedom. We explore freedom along with the responsibility. Life is harsh and wonderful.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
carabiner 3y ago
Brene Brown studied it. It does not turn out well for men: > I was not prepared to hear over and over from men how the women — the mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives — in their lives are constantly criticizing them for not being open and vulnerable and intimate, all the while they are standing in front of that cramped wizard closet where their men are huddled inside, adjusting the curtain and making sure no one sees in and no one gets out. There was a moment when I was driving home from an interview with a small group of men and thought, Holy shit. I am the patriarchy. Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. I posted this on HN before, and out of the woodworks came all the anecdotes of bad reactions to male vulnerability. I strongly advise other men to not discuss their feelings in depth with any woman they have romantic interest in, and possibly women in general since I've seen mothers similarly affected.
- arp242 3y ago
  This is from her book Daring Greatly by the way, in case anyone else was curious.
- em-bee 3y ago
  i'd suggest the total opposite: do talk about your feelings, and if she can't handle it then she isn't the right partner for you.
  - carabiner 3y ago
    You've just whittled down your already small dating pool to something even smaller, or you've alienated your girlfriend (or wife) of 3 years. Was it worth it?
    - ahansen 3y ago
      If anything I feel like becoming more emotionally mature opened up my dating pool, and made me a better partner. Ultimately you are better off being with someone who you can talk about your emotions with. I've been in relationships where I couldn't talk about my problems, and being unable to talk about them didn't make those problems disappear.
93po 3y ago
As a teenager in the early 2000s, the times I reached out for help while being suicidally depressed and alone and very distraight, I was met with extreme discomfort from adults, or treated as a wet dog that just managed to run inside and get water everywhere.
foobiekr 3y ago
There's a reason that men succeed at suicide a lot more frequently than women. Help is often not an option. In his excellent review [1] of Nostalgia Critic's idiotic, embarrassing and awful review of The Wall, Dan Olson points out that much of the part of the film that Doug makes fun of is specifically the main character being told to hide/suppress emotion and struggling with that and failing. In other words, the "satire"'s primary take is basically that men showing feelings is being strictly something to be mocked. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokAtlFGa7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokAtlFGa7Y

usea 3y ago

Are you saying that (in your experience) young men who seek emotional support become weak and ineffective? Or am I misunderstanding what you've written?

formerly_proven 3y ago
> perceived as
- usea 3y ago
  > that perception quickly became reality
MattGaiser 3y ago
I am saying that young men who are seek emotional support then get treated as and viewed as weak and ineffective by those they have sought support from or those around them who know they have sought support, with all the repercussions of that. The men are the same, whether they seek emotional support or not. However, seeking emotional support gets them treated very differently verses not seeking it and it is rarely in a compassionate way.

skyechurch 3y ago

A lot of "problem solving" involving kids means "making the problem go away from the adult's life". E.g. a situation I see played out is kids being told to respond to bullying by acting like they don't care (good advice as far as it goes). If the bullying continues, we hear it isn't a problem because the kids says he doesn't care - which is what we told him to say, true or not. In any case, the problem is solved from the adult's POV - the bullying complaint has disappeared, ticket is moved to resolved. The bullied child now faces his problem alone. Receiving this kind of "support" discourages reaching out for help. (I'm not saying this is specific to boys, don't read too much into pronouns.)

icegreentea2 3y ago

Right, I think the article would completely agree that society as it is right now is not a broadly accepting place for males to be open about their emotional needs. Which is why the call to action isn't for males to be emotionally open in general, but for fathers to try to have more positive and supportive interactions with their sons about emotional needs. And why the article's guide point is 'Encourage them to share their struggles — with you, of course, but also with other trusted adults, a therapist or even friends.', not 'Encourage them to share their struggles with all their acquaintances'.

joemazerino 3y ago
[flagged]
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  Actually I think a man who doesn't seriously acknowledge their own self as an emotional being is the opposite of adapting and overcoming. There should be nothing weak about acknowledging when you're too upset to handle a situation. My professional life would be vastly improved if the men around me had the emotional intelligence to realize they're getting worked up about a code review or something and to take a walk for 10 min instead of assuming their anger is always logically justified somehow.
  - joemazerino 3y ago
    Isn't that definition adapt (realize your mind is blocked) and overcome (go for a walk to change your environment)? I think we are saying the same thing. Recognizing your anger has hijacked your reason is exercising resilience over emotion.
- bitwize 3y ago
  What boys need in order to become men are coping skills. I... didn't really get these growing up. I was simply taught that "men don't cry" and there are consequences for having been seen to cry. I started covering up the times I cried, and then I learned there are consequences for lying, too. I had to figure out a lot on my own, and it took longer than it should have.

znpy 3y ago

Eh, I’m gonna bite the bullet and give a quick answer, based on what’s I’ve seen growing up: Basically you get answers like: “Man up” “Grow a pair” “Boys don’t cry” “Life is harsh, get used to it” Last but not the least: “psychologists are for weak people with mental problems, not for you”. Two more observations again based on my life experience: 1. Weakness is generally accepted in girls/women, largely acknowledged and supported. Can’t say the same for boys/men. 2. Often times I’ve been said the above phrases either by girls/women of my same age or by people like teachers/educators. Basically you end up appearing weak, sometimes get mocked, and in general you’re better off shutting up and keeping stuff inside. Over the years I’ve developed quite a cynicism, that I acknowledge and that (sadly?) works fairly well.

93po 3y ago
I have endless examples of being mocked by my teachers growing up. Including some of your above quotes.
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I teach my son not cry. I teach him how to conduct violence. I teach him to treat people kindly, never equally. We don't cry because we manage our emotions. We know words cannot physically harm us. If it's truth, acknowledge it. If it's a lie, it can be ignored and the liar pitied. Teaching violence because it teaches respect, physical limits, and healthy lifestyle. We know how to be gentle because we are strong. We will kill bad guys. We will be good guys. Violence can lead to death. We love life and will protect it. A child capable of this kind of violence needs to have their emotions in check. He gets hurt? Ask for a hug. Ask for advice how to win. People aren't equal. We don't pretend. We don't go 100% against smaller or less trained. We don't expect everyone to behave as we do. We don't all value the same things. We can still be friends. We can ignore inequity. Sometimes we have more or can do more than others. We do not boast. Sometimes we have less. We do not whine or envy. He is a man when he no longer has to obey me when he tells me he can be responsible for himself. Until then I get to discipline him and limit his freedom. We explore freedom along with the responsibility. Life is harsh and wonderful.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

carabiner 3y ago

Brene Brown studied it. It does not turn out well for men: > I was not prepared to hear over and over from men how the women — the mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives — in their lives are constantly criticizing them for not being open and vulnerable and intimate, all the while they are standing in front of that cramped wizard closet where their men are huddled inside, adjusting the curtain and making sure no one sees in and no one gets out. There was a moment when I was driving home from an interview with a small group of men and thought, Holy shit. I am the patriarchy. Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. I posted this on HN before, and out of the woodworks came all the anecdotes of bad reactions to male vulnerability. I strongly advise other men to not discuss their feelings in depth with any woman they have romantic interest in, and possibly women in general since I've seen mothers similarly affected.

arp242 3y ago
This is from her book Daring Greatly by the way, in case anyone else was curious.
em-bee 3y ago
i'd suggest the total opposite: do talk about your feelings, and if she can't handle it then she isn't the right partner for you.
- carabiner 3y ago
  You've just whittled down your already small dating pool to something even smaller, or you've alienated your girlfriend (or wife) of 3 years. Was it worth it?
  - ahansen 3y ago
    If anything I feel like becoming more emotionally mature opened up my dating pool, and made me a better partner. Ultimately you are better off being with someone who you can talk about your emotions with. I've been in relationships where I couldn't talk about my problems, and being unable to talk about them didn't make those problems disappear.

93po 3y ago

As a teenager in the early 2000s, the times I reached out for help while being suicidally depressed and alone and very distraight, I was met with extreme discomfort from adults, or treated as a wet dog that just managed to run inside and get water everywhere.

foobiekr 3y ago

There's a reason that men succeed at suicide a lot more frequently than women. Help is often not an option. In his excellent review [1] of Nostalgia Critic's idiotic, embarrassing and awful review of The Wall, Dan Olson points out that much of the part of the film that Doug makes fun of is specifically the main character being told to hide/suppress emotion and struggling with that and failing. In other words, the "satire"'s primary take is basically that men showing feelings is being strictly something to be mocked. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokAtlFGa7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokAtlFGa7Y