6 ms·

Many years ago we were posting jobs on a local bulletin boards and received applicant resumes on an email. The composition of a resume acted as a primary filter

Many years ago we were posting jobs on a local bulletin boards and received applicant resumes on an email. The composition of a resume acted as a primary filter from people who couldn't even organize a few lines of information about themselves. Then, an internet company in our country took over the market and almost all jobs are searched through it. Of course,it features a very nice resume builder, so now everyone has a nice resume and we can't even filter out the worst candidates without an investigative effort. Thus, this work is commendable, but might have harmful effects.

robobro 3y ago
If your primary filter is whether or not someone can produce a resume or not, do better.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  It suited me quite fine for many years. If an intellectual worker can't take a text editor and produce a coherent text about his skills and job experience, it is unlikely he'll be good at any job that requires thinking.
  - least 3y ago
    > If an intellectual worker can't take a text editor and produce a coherent text about his skills and job experience, it is unlikely he'll be good at any job that requires thinking. I'd argue that if a resume builder threatens your ability to filter out good and bad resumes, you're probably not a good hiring manager and also are unlikely to be fit for a job that requires thinking.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      You could try to argue that, but I think you’d need more information about how successful this person’s career has been to present much of an argument. A quick dumb filter that works isn’t dumb, right?
  - tiborsaas 3y ago
    A good looking and easy to read resume take more than coherent text. It requires good typography, font choice, spacing etc. These generators with template designs take care of this problem so I can focus on the content not on designing my CV.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
      Actually, back in the day we specifically wrote in the job description to put CV text in the email body, not in an attached Word document. So, template design and typography were absolutely irrelevant. Also, many people failed to notice this and attached files with their CVs anyway. I had a special tag 'dyslexic' for those in my email client.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
LikeAnElephant 3y ago
I think this mindset is vastly more harmful than an open source resume builder.
RobotToaster 3y ago
Require applications to be sent by post. You'll filter out a lot of people who can't even send a letter properly that way.
- corobo 3y ago
  You'll also filter a bunch of people who respect their time enough to say "fuck that lmao" You can probably get away with it you're the only place hiring
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
AHOHA 3y ago
You are discriminating against the candidates who might have some disabilities (whether they know they have or not) like dyslexia, you are also discriminating against candidates whose English (or whatever that language in your country) isn’t their first, even though they might be the best suited candidates, best programmers/engineers/etc., I have seen this first hand in some interviews, where some candidates eliminated from the first round by hiring managers because of similar issues or even silly ones like having an accent, after I -as the technical interviewer- gave the green light thay they are qualified for the second one.
- joelegner 3y ago
  In my field communicating with other English-speaking people is probably 80% of the job. Someone who cannot read and write clear English prose will not be successful. Serious question: if I eliminate someone from contention because they struggle to read, write, and speak English, is that “discrimination”?
  - Arch485 3y ago
    Yes, by definition. Whether or not it's legal depends on where you live, and whether or not it's ethical depends on who you ask.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Depends on how good their lawyer happens to be, swording arguments with the employment law for people with disabilities. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/odep/publications/fact-sheets/employment-laws-disability-and-discrimination https://www.dol.gov/agencies/odep/publications/fact-sheets/e...
  - AHOHA 3y ago
    No one said anything about the ability to communicate, but the discrimination against candidates with some disability like dyslexia, it is YOUR job as an employer to provide the proper tool -either during the interview process or even after hiring- to make sure the work isn’t affected, and having a proper process to address it. Same goes with accent, it isn’t about the ability to communicate but rather the accent or linguistics bias either by not hiring these candidates, or excluding them later from meetings, presentations, etc., or eliminating any future career growth. Obviously those discriminations are illegal so it goes passive most of the times, by continuous interruption during meetings or intentionally asked to repeat or elaborate themselves, among other. It’s not about communication abilities as this is usually the covert passive response for such discriminatory behaviors, a lot of these candidates can speak “better” in terms of clarity than people with Australian accent for example, it’s just another episode of “I’m better than you”, you can read more about that in here: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-problem-of-linguistic-racism https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/18/accent-discrimination-is-still-a-pervasive-issue-in-the-workplace-research-finds/?sh=3c8daf9c697e https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/18/accent-... https://exceptionalindividuals.com/about-us/blog/what-is-dyslexia-discrimination-and-how-to-avoid-it/ https://exceptionalindividuals.com/about-us/blog/what-is-dys...
jnsie 3y ago
> The composition of a resume acted as a primary filter from people who couldn't even organize a few lines of information about themselves. That's fine...but you have no way of knowing if the people you filtered out would have been low or high performing employees.
wnolens 3y ago
Are you hiring for a writing gig? If not, the bias could hurt. It's like a leet code interview - artificial bar from highly biased interviewers which kinda sorta works but is buggy and a bit discriminatory.
- JoshuaEN 3y ago
  Most of my job as a software developer is communicating with other people (stakeholders, peers, management), including written (pr comments, emails to various people, Teams chats, design documents) and vocal. Even writing code is ultimately a form of communication (code structure, variable names, comments, etc...). Even new developers who are primarily going to be mentored greatly benefit from being able to effectively communicate with their mentor and the rest of the team (plus being able to grow into more senior roles). Someone doesn't need to be perfect at communicating or anywhere close, but just like I wouldn't hire someone who cannot show a baseline of programming skills and knowledge, I also wouldn't hire someone who cannot show a baseline of communication skills (and I have regretted getting swayed by other interviewers when a candidate did well in other aspects).
  - wnolens 3y ago
    I agree. I'd assess a technical writing sample though. I'm actually shocked this doesn't occur. Some months I spend 75% of my time thinking, writing about designs, diagramming, then meeting, communicating, reviewing and iterating on the doc. Coding is the easy part.
kingkongjaffa 3y ago
Pretty firmly with you on this one and not with the detractors. Ultimately, engineers are solving business problems, working with other departments and untangling technical ideas. Often they need to explain those ideas to non-technical folks, and just as often, they need to justify their decisions to technical and non-technical colleagues. In every area and task having solid writing skills including documentation, emails, and putting together reports, is extremely important. Frankly if engineers lack the care and attention to detail to put together a decent resume that's a pretty strong signal their other writing is probably sloppy as well. To the detractors: writing code is the easiest part of the job, figuring out what code to write to solve the right business problem in concert with other areas is what is important. I do not care if you are a wiz kid mega coder, if your writing is sloppy it casts doubt on everything you _are_ trying to say.
BaseballPhysics 3y ago
Damn shame the recruiter world moved to ATS's, which force folks to use tools like this to ensure their resume can be gobbled up and understood by those systems. Personally, I love my bespoke, beautifully typeset CV. But I also recognize it's useless if I ever want to get through the ATS screening process. I'm far better off using a tool like this so I have confidence the damn thing will get read properly. Or: your profession is now reaping what they've sown. Force resumes through a machine and we'll start building them with machines.
xitang 3y ago
Thanks for sharing this feedback. Very interesting to learn that the resume composition was a primary filter back then. As you note, with the advancement of internet and proliferation of internet companies/tools, it is much easier to get a nice resume design than ever before, e.g. one can easily look it up on google and pay to use it. A problem I see and motivates me to create this tool is that this can create an unequal playing field, where students/folks with more resources can easily afford to pay for such tool and have their resume well formatted and ATS tested. I created this tool in hopes to eliminate this barrier and to allow anyone to have a good starting resume design with built-in best practices so they are in the level playing field. Having a well formatted resume is only the first step, as it still requires a lot of works and thinking for someone to write down their experiences and descriptions, where it should yield more signals on the candidates. I can see how resume format might be used back then, but in current days, it might be helpful to consider ways to gain deeper insights into candidates, e.g. assessments, interviews
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  Of course, that ship has sailed long ago. The days of hand prepared resumes sent by an email were over a decade ago. Just wanted to share the value that was brought by not having such tools. Keep up the good work and good luck!
proxiful-wash 3y ago
I was literally just writing a comment about this. Good calls. It does have harmful effects, its just like a fake fake deep fake.

robobro 3y ago

If your primary filter is whether or not someone can produce a resume or not, do better.

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
It suited me quite fine for many years. If an intellectual worker can't take a text editor and produce a coherent text about his skills and job experience, it is unlikely he'll be good at any job that requires thinking.
- least 3y ago
  > If an intellectual worker can't take a text editor and produce a coherent text about his skills and job experience, it is unlikely he'll be good at any job that requires thinking. I'd argue that if a resume builder threatens your ability to filter out good and bad resumes, you're probably not a good hiring manager and also are unlikely to be fit for a job that requires thinking.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    You could try to argue that, but I think you’d need more information about how successful this person’s career has been to present much of an argument. A quick dumb filter that works isn’t dumb, right?
- tiborsaas 3y ago
  A good looking and easy to read resume take more than coherent text. It requires good typography, font choice, spacing etc. These generators with template designs take care of this problem so I can focus on the content not on designing my CV.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    Actually, back in the day we specifically wrote in the job description to put CV text in the email body, not in an attached Word document. So, template design and typography were absolutely irrelevant. Also, many people failed to notice this and attached files with their CVs anyway. I had a special tag 'dyslexic' for those in my email client.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

LikeAnElephant 3y ago

I think this mindset is vastly more harmful than an open source resume builder.

RobotToaster 3y ago

Require applications to be sent by post. You'll filter out a lot of people who can't even send a letter properly that way.

corobo 3y ago
You'll also filter a bunch of people who respect their time enough to say "fuck that lmao" You can probably get away with it you're the only place hiring
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

AHOHA 3y ago

You are discriminating against the candidates who might have some disabilities (whether they know they have or not) like dyslexia, you are also discriminating against candidates whose English (or whatever that language in your country) isn’t their first, even though they might be the best suited candidates, best programmers/engineers/etc., I have seen this first hand in some interviews, where some candidates eliminated from the first round by hiring managers because of similar issues or even silly ones like having an accent, after I -as the technical interviewer- gave the green light thay they are qualified for the second one.

joelegner 3y ago
In my field communicating with other English-speaking people is probably 80% of the job. Someone who cannot read and write clear English prose will not be successful. Serious question: if I eliminate someone from contention because they struggle to read, write, and speak English, is that “discrimination”?
- Arch485 3y ago
  Yes, by definition. Whether or not it's legal depends on where you live, and whether or not it's ethical depends on who you ask.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Depends on how good their lawyer happens to be, swording arguments with the employment law for people with disabilities. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/odep/publications/fact-sheets/employment-laws-disability-and-discrimination https://www.dol.gov/agencies/odep/publications/fact-sheets/e...
- AHOHA 3y ago
  No one said anything about the ability to communicate, but the discrimination against candidates with some disability like dyslexia, it is YOUR job as an employer to provide the proper tool -either during the interview process or even after hiring- to make sure the work isn’t affected, and having a proper process to address it. Same goes with accent, it isn’t about the ability to communicate but rather the accent or linguistics bias either by not hiring these candidates, or excluding them later from meetings, presentations, etc., or eliminating any future career growth. Obviously those discriminations are illegal so it goes passive most of the times, by continuous interruption during meetings or intentionally asked to repeat or elaborate themselves, among other. It’s not about communication abilities as this is usually the covert passive response for such discriminatory behaviors, a lot of these candidates can speak “better” in terms of clarity than people with Australian accent for example, it’s just another episode of “I’m better than you”, you can read more about that in here: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-problem-of-linguistic-racism https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210528-the-pervasive-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/18/accent-discrimination-is-still-a-pervasive-issue-in-the-workplace-research-finds/?sh=3c8daf9c697e https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2022/11/18/accent-... https://exceptionalindividuals.com/about-us/blog/what-is-dyslexia-discrimination-and-how-to-avoid-it/ https://exceptionalindividuals.com/about-us/blog/what-is-dys...

jnsie 3y ago

> The composition of a resume acted as a primary filter from people who couldn't even organize a few lines of information about themselves. That's fine...but you have no way of knowing if the people you filtered out would have been low or high performing employees.

wnolens 3y ago

Are you hiring for a writing gig? If not, the bias could hurt. It's like a leet code interview - artificial bar from highly biased interviewers which kinda sorta works but is buggy and a bit discriminatory.

JoshuaEN 3y ago
Most of my job as a software developer is communicating with other people (stakeholders, peers, management), including written (pr comments, emails to various people, Teams chats, design documents) and vocal. Even writing code is ultimately a form of communication (code structure, variable names, comments, etc...). Even new developers who are primarily going to be mentored greatly benefit from being able to effectively communicate with their mentor and the rest of the team (plus being able to grow into more senior roles). Someone doesn't need to be perfect at communicating or anywhere close, but just like I wouldn't hire someone who cannot show a baseline of programming skills and knowledge, I also wouldn't hire someone who cannot show a baseline of communication skills (and I have regretted getting swayed by other interviewers when a candidate did well in other aspects).
- wnolens 3y ago
  I agree. I'd assess a technical writing sample though. I'm actually shocked this doesn't occur. Some months I spend 75% of my time thinking, writing about designs, diagramming, then meeting, communicating, reviewing and iterating on the doc. Coding is the easy part.

kingkongjaffa 3y ago

Pretty firmly with you on this one and not with the detractors. Ultimately, engineers are solving business problems, working with other departments and untangling technical ideas. Often they need to explain those ideas to non-technical folks, and just as often, they need to justify their decisions to technical and non-technical colleagues. In every area and task having solid writing skills including documentation, emails, and putting together reports, is extremely important. Frankly if engineers lack the care and attention to detail to put together a decent resume that's a pretty strong signal their other writing is probably sloppy as well. To the detractors: writing code is the easiest part of the job, figuring out what code to write to solve the right business problem in concert with other areas is what is important. I do not care if you are a wiz kid mega coder, if your writing is sloppy it casts doubt on everything you _are_ trying to say.

BaseballPhysics 3y ago

Damn shame the recruiter world moved to ATS's, which force folks to use tools like this to ensure their resume can be gobbled up and understood by those systems. Personally, I love my bespoke, beautifully typeset CV. But I also recognize it's useless if I ever want to get through the ATS screening process. I'm far better off using a tool like this so I have confidence the damn thing will get read properly. Or: your profession is now reaping what they've sown. Force resumes through a machine and we'll start building them with machines.

xitang 3y ago

Thanks for sharing this feedback. Very interesting to learn that the resume composition was a primary filter back then. As you note, with the advancement of internet and proliferation of internet companies/tools, it is much easier to get a nice resume design than ever before, e.g. one can easily look it up on google and pay to use it. A problem I see and motivates me to create this tool is that this can create an unequal playing field, where students/folks with more resources can easily afford to pay for such tool and have their resume well formatted and ATS tested. I created this tool in hopes to eliminate this barrier and to allow anyone to have a good starting resume design with built-in best practices so they are in the level playing field. Having a well formatted resume is only the first step, as it still requires a lot of works and thinking for someone to write down their experiences and descriptions, where it should yield more signals on the candidates. I can see how resume format might be used back then, but in current days, it might be helpful to consider ways to gain deeper insights into candidates, e.g. assessments, interviews

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
Of course, that ship has sailed long ago. The days of hand prepared resumes sent by an email were over a decade ago. Just wanted to share the value that was brought by not having such tools. Keep up the good work and good luck!

proxiful-wash 3y ago

I was literally just writing a comment about this. Good calls. It does have harmful effects, its just like a fake fake deep fake.