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Is it surprising that a mere overhang in the rock has been sufficient to preserve art for that long? It sounds like they really are just pigment on cleaned rock

by abeppu 3y ago

Is it surprising that a mere overhang in the rock has been sufficient to preserve art for that long? It sounds like they really are just pigment on cleaned rock, and I would have thought that water dripping, wind, lichens, animals or _something_ over the millennia would have ruined it.

crazygringo 3y ago
I too was baffled by this, in my experience modern paint isn't going to last that long. But I looked it up and supposedly: > Because ochre is a mineral, it doesn't wash away or decay, allowing it to persist through the ages. [1] > ...the ancient artisans of Babine Lake in British Columbia harvested ochre sediment... Then, MacDonald says, they carefully heated it to around 750 to 850 degrees Celsius over open-hearth fires to achieve the colour they desired... Not only would the process yield the vivid red, the ancient artisans must have known, but it would “improve colourfastness, stability and resistance to degradation”, the scientists’ article says... The iron in the material bonds easily to surfaces that are high in silica, like the rock faces, ensuring their durability. [2] So it seems it's due to actual chemical bonding. Which makes me wonder -- if you applied ochre to rock today, how hard would it be to then remove? Would it be impossible with regular washing, would you need power washing, or sandblasting even? [1] https://www.livescience.com/64138-ochre.html https://www.livescience.com/64138-ochre.html [2] https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/11/21/scientists-uncover-a-secret-to-rock-arts-durability https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/11/21/scientists-uncove...
- flybrand 3y ago
  > how hard would it be to then remove? Permanent graffiti through science!
  - jvm___ 3y ago
    City workers hate that teenagers learned this one trick...
- soligern 3y ago
  [dead]
- jaclaz 3y ago
  Laser erasers? Example, one used on some monuments in Florence: https://www.lasersystemseurope.com/news/infrared-laser-used-remove-graffiti https://www.lasersystemseurope.com/news/infrared-laser-used-...
ChatGTP 3y ago
Same with Australian Aboriginal paintings, some very ancient, some had been repainted yes but even the fact the images last 100 years is pretty amazing.
contingencies 3y ago
I've personally seen a number of sites with ancient paintings in Cangyuan, Lincang (age ~3000 years) and one site at Malipo, Wenshan (age ~4000 years) in Yunnan, southwest China. These are amongst the earliest evidenced in China. In all cases they have been sited beneath natural rock overhangs and thus semi-protected yet in tropical (high rainfall) areas. This is nothing compared to Australian aboriginal paintings (>40K years) or some other sites (to 65K years). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting
pirate787 3y ago
Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if its a modern hoax, especially given the images of European contact. The dating is just based on the types of animals -- is there any science that validates the age? There's also no fossil evidence to support the drawings. https://www.ancientartarchive.org/serrania-de-la-lindosa/ https://www.ancientartarchive.org/serrania-de-la-lindosa/

by abeppu 3y ago

crazygringo 3y ago

I too was baffled by this, in my experience modern paint isn't going to last that long. But I looked it up and supposedly: > Because ochre is a mineral, it doesn't wash away or decay, allowing it to persist through the ages. [1] > ...the ancient artisans of Babine Lake in British Columbia harvested ochre sediment... Then, MacDonald says, they carefully heated it to around 750 to 850 degrees Celsius over open-hearth fires to achieve the colour they desired... Not only would the process yield the vivid red, the ancient artisans must have known, but it would “improve colourfastness, stability and resistance to degradation”, the scientists’ article says... The iron in the material bonds easily to surfaces that are high in silica, like the rock faces, ensuring their durability. [2] So it seems it's due to actual chemical bonding. Which makes me wonder -- if you applied ochre to rock today, how hard would it be to then remove? Would it be impossible with regular washing, would you need power washing, or sandblasting even? [1] https://www.livescience.com/64138-ochre.html https://www.livescience.com/64138-ochre.html [2] https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/11/21/scientists-uncover-a-secret-to-rock-arts-durability https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2019/11/21/scientists-uncove...

flybrand 3y ago
> how hard would it be to then remove? Permanent graffiti through science!
- jvm___ 3y ago
  City workers hate that teenagers learned this one trick...
soligern 3y ago
[dead]
jaclaz 3y ago
Laser erasers? Example, one used on some monuments in Florence: https://www.lasersystemseurope.com/news/infrared-laser-used-remove-graffiti https://www.lasersystemseurope.com/news/infrared-laser-used-...

ChatGTP 3y ago

Same with Australian Aboriginal paintings, some very ancient, some had been repainted yes but even the fact the images last 100 years is pretty amazing.

contingencies 3y ago

I've personally seen a number of sites with ancient paintings in Cangyuan, Lincang (age ~3000 years) and one site at Malipo, Wenshan (age ~4000 years) in Yunnan, southwest China. These are amongst the earliest evidenced in China. In all cases they have been sited beneath natural rock overhangs and thus semi-protected yet in tropical (high rainfall) areas. This is nothing compared to Australian aboriginal paintings (>40K years) or some other sites (to 65K years). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting

pirate787 3y ago

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if its a modern hoax, especially given the images of European contact. The dating is just based on the types of animals -- is there any science that validates the age? There's also no fossil evidence to support the drawings. https://www.ancientartarchive.org/serrania-de-la-lindosa/ https://www.ancientartarchive.org/serrania-de-la-lindosa/