5 ms·

As I understand it, these French villages are huge money sinks. You buy them, then find that French law requires you maintain them in their original condition.

by wisty 15y ago

As I understand it, these French villages are huge money sinks. You buy them, then find that French law requires you maintain them in their original condition. You can't bulldoze them and build modern buildings, and making 15th century French hamlets livable (let alone suitable as a hacker-space) isn't easy. If you love restoring old buildings, knock yourself out; but otherwise I'd be very careful. Check what the impact of heritage laws is.

ekianjo 15y ago
And if you dive in the French Law a little bit, you will find out it's far from being entrepreneur-friendly. You will get massively taxed on any profit, and employees' rights are so large that you could be sued if you need to cut down your resources (even if you do on pure economic grounds). Definitely not a place to build a startup. That's one of the reasons there are no high profile startups in France: there's way too many obstacles, most french people who are serious about creating one usually leave the country. Edit: oh, and I forgot that, in France, making money on your own, is very badly regarded. You would be assumed to be rich and evil, by default. (I am not inventing anything. Just check french forums/newspapers whenever there are economic news).
- thibaut_barrere 15y ago
  I don't know really: most people I know from various social circles see making money as rather cool (extra bonus points if you have fun while doing it). This looks like 80's way of thinking maybe :)
  - ekianjo 15y ago
    Well that depends on your social circle then. You can check the press for yourself if you are unaware of the reputation of "patrons"or "capitalistes"　in France. They hardly come under a positive light.
- koopajah 15y ago
  That's a very gross approximation of what France is. And I don't see the problem with being sued when cutting down resources if you don't have to and do it only for profit. If it's the only way to save your company you can do it and the law is clear on that.
  - ekianjo 15y ago
    I am not sure how familiar you are with the situation in France, but very often nowadays the former employees sue you EVEN if you fired them because you were losing money. Very recently the court has also refused the right to fire employees to a french affiliate of a multinational company, on the basis that, overall, worldwide, the company was still making profit. This, regardless of how healthy the french affiliate was. That's how perverted the situation is.
    - pgeorgi 15y ago
      So employees sue, the court (as reasonably independent party) checks the books, and decides that you actually had reason to fire them. Sounds like a good trade-off to me (to keep both employers and employees honest). I don't know the situation in France, but in Germany the Arbeitsgerichte (employment courts) are rather cheap for both parties (unless you opt for the most expensive lawyer around, of course - however that might not help the case that you're really bleeding money). As for the multinationals and their local branches: For one, I doubt that this court's decision applies universally (case law isn't typical in continental Europe), and even then, we'd have to see the circumstances of the case. I could imagine that the court found that money was extracted from the french affiliate (eg. using somewhat dubious licensing agreements) with the implied purpose to make the franch branch look weak enough that it can do all kinds of restructuring (such as reducing work force). With such tight coupling between the two corporations (why should the french affiliate hand over money for nothing if it's not just a branch of the parent Co.?), one can expect that money flows back to aid the affiliate, too. But that's speculation (one way or the other).
    - koopajah 15y ago
      I am French, live and work in France currently so I am familiar with the situation. It's true that work-related laws favour a lot the employees over the company and protect them a lot but I really don't see this as a bad thing at all. Employees cannot slack of all day, endanger the company be fired and still sue you and won tons of money. But you cannot fire half of your company without a really good reason either. I can understand that it seems strange to someone not working in France but when you've lived with this kind of protection it really is one of the best thing that makes me want to keep working in France.
- Gmo 15y ago
  Please stop spreading FUD, thanks : http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/02/07/six-lies/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/02/07/six-lies/
  - ekianjo 15y ago
    Hum. I checked your link: 1. Government sponsoring startups. That sounds like soviet union. Remember, it's the same government that has a huge debt of thousands of billions of euros? That money won't last forever. It's going to be very expensive to get funds of the market for France, and they will have to cut into the sponsorship sooner or later. Not reliable. 2. It takes a long time to set up a company in France. NOt only the administrative tasks themselves, but getting to know what you need to do takes time prior to take action. It's not straightforward and there is not a single place to go to. 3. High taxes. High taxes are high taxes, no matter what you compare them to. Look at what an employer has to pay to the State before even paying a single employee. It's scary. 4. Talent pool. I don't argue on that point, you can find good people. Just like in every developed country with a relatively efficient education system, by the way. 5. This only mentions the trial period and the time when the employee is under a temporary contract. The situation is very different once that person is under a CDI (unlimited duration contract). Then they can take sick leave whenever they want to, and it will be very difficult to get rid of a non-performing employee. It's a fact. 6. Funny point. Most of those startups are virtually unknown internationally. And Dailymotion was bought over by a semi-public company (Orange), a well known public enemy of innovation and champion of statu quo. For a fact, there's no Twitter, no Facebook, no Google in France. Not even anything close to that. Yeah, you are right, that says a lot about the startup investment scene in France. Next time you want to call my claims a FUD, please find better links.
    - Gmo 15y ago
      I'm sorry but you keep spreading FUD ... 1. Your first point is totally moot ... go check the debt of the United States and we'll talk again. I'm not even talking about your "Soviet union" totally closed political view. 2. I'd argue that it'll take a long time to set up a company anywhere when you don't know the customs of the country. Of course, language is an additional barrier, but I'm pretty sure I'd manage to set up a startup quickier in France than in the US, just because I'm French. Same for you in your own country. Big deal. 3. If you don't understand that the tax system is totally different, and that it means you won't have to make a 401k (I think that the name right ?) and buy your employees social security, I can't do anything for you. Once again, you are very biased towards a very specific type of system. 4. Great that you agree. 5. As it is said, trial periods are standard in any permanent contract, if after 6 months you still don't know that you don't like your employee, I'm sorry, but I can't do anything for you. 6. A point you could make for almost any non-English speaking country.

by wisty 15y ago

ekianjo 15y ago

And if you dive in the French Law a little bit, you will find out it's far from being entrepreneur-friendly. You will get massively taxed on any profit, and employees' rights are so large that you could be sued if you need to cut down your resources (even if you do on pure economic grounds). Definitely not a place to build a startup. That's one of the reasons there are no high profile startups in France: there's way too many obstacles, most french people who are serious about creating one usually leave the country. Edit: oh, and I forgot that, in France, making money on your own, is very badly regarded. You would be assumed to be rich and evil, by default. (I am not inventing anything. Just check french forums/newspapers whenever there are economic news).

thibaut_barrere 15y ago
I don't know really: most people I know from various social circles see making money as rather cool (extra bonus points if you have fun while doing it). This looks like 80's way of thinking maybe :)
- ekianjo 15y ago
  Well that depends on your social circle then. You can check the press for yourself if you are unaware of the reputation of "patrons"or "capitalistes"　in France. They hardly come under a positive light.
koopajah 15y ago
That's a very gross approximation of what France is. And I don't see the problem with being sued when cutting down resources if you don't have to and do it only for profit. If it's the only way to save your company you can do it and the law is clear on that.
- ekianjo 15y ago
  I am not sure how familiar you are with the situation in France, but very often nowadays the former employees sue you EVEN if you fired them because you were losing money. Very recently the court has also refused the right to fire employees to a french affiliate of a multinational company, on the basis that, overall, worldwide, the company was still making profit. This, regardless of how healthy the french affiliate was. That's how perverted the situation is.
  - pgeorgi 15y ago
    So employees sue, the court (as reasonably independent party) checks the books, and decides that you actually had reason to fire them. Sounds like a good trade-off to me (to keep both employers and employees honest). I don't know the situation in France, but in Germany the Arbeitsgerichte (employment courts) are rather cheap for both parties (unless you opt for the most expensive lawyer around, of course - however that might not help the case that you're really bleeding money). As for the multinationals and their local branches: For one, I doubt that this court's decision applies universally (case law isn't typical in continental Europe), and even then, we'd have to see the circumstances of the case. I could imagine that the court found that money was extracted from the french affiliate (eg. using somewhat dubious licensing agreements) with the implied purpose to make the franch branch look weak enough that it can do all kinds of restructuring (such as reducing work force). With such tight coupling between the two corporations (why should the french affiliate hand over money for nothing if it's not just a branch of the parent Co.?), one can expect that money flows back to aid the affiliate, too. But that's speculation (one way or the other).
  - koopajah 15y ago
    I am French, live and work in France currently so I am familiar with the situation. It's true that work-related laws favour a lot the employees over the company and protect them a lot but I really don't see this as a bad thing at all. Employees cannot slack of all day, endanger the company be fired and still sue you and won tons of money. But you cannot fire half of your company without a really good reason either. I can understand that it seems strange to someone not working in France but when you've lived with this kind of protection it really is one of the best thing that makes me want to keep working in France.
Gmo 15y ago
Please stop spreading FUD, thanks : http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/02/07/six-lies/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2012/02/07/six-lies/
- ekianjo 15y ago
  Hum. I checked your link: 1. Government sponsoring startups. That sounds like soviet union. Remember, it's the same government that has a huge debt of thousands of billions of euros? That money won't last forever. It's going to be very expensive to get funds of the market for France, and they will have to cut into the sponsorship sooner or later. Not reliable. 2. It takes a long time to set up a company in France. NOt only the administrative tasks themselves, but getting to know what you need to do takes time prior to take action. It's not straightforward and there is not a single place to go to. 3. High taxes. High taxes are high taxes, no matter what you compare them to. Look at what an employer has to pay to the State before even paying a single employee. It's scary. 4. Talent pool. I don't argue on that point, you can find good people. Just like in every developed country with a relatively efficient education system, by the way. 5. This only mentions the trial period and the time when the employee is under a temporary contract. The situation is very different once that person is under a CDI (unlimited duration contract). Then they can take sick leave whenever they want to, and it will be very difficult to get rid of a non-performing employee. It's a fact. 6. Funny point. Most of those startups are virtually unknown internationally. And Dailymotion was bought over by a semi-public company (Orange), a well known public enemy of innovation and champion of statu quo. For a fact, there's no Twitter, no Facebook, no Google in France. Not even anything close to that. Yeah, you are right, that says a lot about the startup investment scene in France. Next time you want to call my claims a FUD, please find better links.
  - Gmo 15y ago
    I'm sorry but you keep spreading FUD ... 1. Your first point is totally moot ... go check the debt of the United States and we'll talk again. I'm not even talking about your "Soviet union" totally closed political view. 2. I'd argue that it'll take a long time to set up a company anywhere when you don't know the customs of the country. Of course, language is an additional barrier, but I'm pretty sure I'd manage to set up a startup quickier in France than in the US, just because I'm French. Same for you in your own country. Big deal. 3. If you don't understand that the tax system is totally different, and that it means you won't have to make a 401k (I think that the name right ?) and buy your employees social security, I can't do anything for you. Once again, you are very biased towards a very specific type of system. 4. Great that you agree. 5. As it is said, trial periods are standard in any permanent contract, if after 6 months you still don't know that you don't like your employee, I'm sorry, but I can't do anything for you. 6. A point you could make for almost any non-English speaking country.