9 ms·

The console war argument is around such an outdated definition of the gaming industry. Self-identifying gamers have had their head in the sand for over a decade

by a13o 3y ago

The console war argument is around such an outdated definition of the gaming industry. Self-identifying gamers have had their head in the sand for over a decade now. Since 2010 mobile gaming has eclipsed revenue of both console and PC gaming _combined_. Also since 2010, console revenue has stagnated while PC revenue has continued to grow. This is the landscape to evaluate the different gaming brands. Xboxes are nothing more than a user-friendly gaming PC brand. The total addressable market for Microsoft is much larger than what Sony could hope for. Sony is in the worst bind long-term, trapped in consoles without any leg up in PC or mobile. They invested in VR instead which never became a strong category. In terms of revenue, VR is barely competing with Arcades. If you had to stack rank gaming devices, iOS would be winning the console wars, followed by Android. In a distant third would be PlayStation, and then Microsoft and Nintendo neck in neck. If you look at it by company, Tencent would be at the top, then Sony, then Microsoft and Nintendo. Microsoft is definitely in -- at best -- third place no matter how you count it. The FTC trying to restrict the conversation to an era of console war that expired over 13 years ago shows they have no business trying to regulate this space.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Maybe Microsoft could compete by building something people would pay money for, rather than just buying their way to a dominant position?
- giantg2 3y ago
  I guess the underlying question is, are any of the consoles worth buying? I feel like they aren't.
  - WillAdams 3y ago
    The Nintendo Switch is an easy choice if one wants a mix of at-home and mobile gaming and are able to find games w/in its catalog which suit. I just wish someone would make a motion-controlled RPG which had: - the exploration and immersive story of Xenoblade Chronicles - the amazing imagery and intricate puzzles of Pandora's Tower - the endless grinding potential of The Last Story - on-going content like to Diablo 3's Seasons - the fluid transition between ranged combat and melee of Red Steel 2 - the wonderful archery of Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword on the Wii and a story/world where constant replays make sense --- say something like to the Gates of C.J. Cherryh's Morgaine books. (and yes, I should spend more time playing Ring Fit Adventure, but )
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Yes, why isn't anyone "just" making the perfect game? Look how easy it was to write that list. It's just the best aspect of six games and a series of books. Can't be too hard.
      - oblio 3y ago
        > Yes, why isn't anyone "just" making the perfect game? I think we had a few that tried. We got instant classics released soon after the initial announcement: Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever, etc.
    - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
      The problem with the Switch is, why buy that when you can get a Steam Deck? It’s exclusives aren’t really that exclusive when emulation exists. And all things considered, buying a legal copy of the game and then pirating the game file is equivalent enough to satisfy most moral objections one may have. The PS5 is really the only console with any amount of exclusives, and even then Sony is opening up to PC more and more. So to answer OP, none are really worth by themselves. Online games obviously create different considerations though.
      - jghn 3y ago
        Because I like Nintendo and would like to financially reward them for their efforts?
        deadbunny 3y ago
        Did you miss the part where they said they bought the game before pirating it? Hardware doesn't make money, software does.
        jghn 3y ago
        No I did not. Sales numbers matter. And Nintendo claims to make a profit on the hardware.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Depends on how much you like messing with drivers, and other hardware issues.
    - ericd 3y ago
      I haven’t had a driver issue in windows in ages, have you? I’m sure they still happen here and there, but I feel like this is mostly an obsolete meme at this point.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        You would be surprised when looking at AAA bug databases, specially graphics and audio. Not everyone buys top quality hardware.
        ericd 3y ago
        Yeah, fair, I guess I’ve narrowed my vendor list a lot from when I was a teenager, probably a big part of it.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I had no issues with my PC drivers. On the other hand I had to install a sound driver on Xbox for my headset to work...
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Sure...
        giantg2 3y ago
        For real
        pjmlp 3y ago
        And the driver was installed on XBox putting a USB pen and starting setup.exe..../s
  - gilbetron 3y ago
    I love my PS5, as I loved all the playstations, although the xbox 360 saw more use from me for that era. I also game on the PC, but generally I find consoles get more gaming use, because I'm in front of a PC screen all day for work, so it's nice to sit on a coach and play games in the evening. The game catalog is huge, and older games these days are well worth playing. I'd say I'm at about 90% console gaming to 10% pc gaming at this point (no mobile gaming), although it can vary a lot over the years. Also, a console just works (99% of the time), and I don't have to fiddle with drivers and editing config files and the other random crap that can crop up with even the best PC games.
    - carl_dr 3y ago
      > Also, a console just works (99% of the time), and I don't have to fiddle with drivers and editing config files and the other random crap that can crop up with even the best PC games. Another anecdata point - I have several hundred games for PC on Steam, and can’t remember the last time I had an issue with drivers or having to do anything to get games to run.
  - tmerc 3y ago
    That depends on what you value in a console. I bought an xbone a few years after I quit wow and got rid of my gaming PC. I don't game much any more but when I want to, I have xbone. 8 years of an appliance that plays games for like $300. My fiance doesn't play PC games but will play Xbox. My cat sitter doesn't need an account on my computer to play fortnight. A gaming PC would be better in most ways but as far as value for dollar, xbone was well worth buying.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I agree they are dirt cheap for the specs. They've just lost the social aspect. I miss the LAN parties with 12-16 guys playing playing together in someone's basement.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    It depends. Can you compare a car and a motorcycle? Maybe, but they really don't compete directly in most cases. I play 90% of my games on my PC but when I play Co-op I always pick the console version of the game if possible because every single time there are problems with either Windows, the game, whatever communication software we use, the network, etc. etc. I can count on one hand how many times I've had these problems since the original Xbox. The whole experience also feels very different. I have also been lucky enough to not once have a console die unlike a PC and I own all my old consoles - again unlike all my PCs (try installing a PlayStation 1 era PC game on a modern PC).
    - giantg2 3y ago
      "try installing a PlayStation 1 era PC game on a modern PC" I still occasionally play F22 TAW and Chamanche Gold. No issues. I've had way more issues like you describe on Xbox with stuff like Halo Infinite than with stuff on PC like Destiny 2. That includes driver issues! (Headset sound on Xbox).
  - MegaDeKay 3y ago
    The answer depends on the individual, but millions and millions of people have said "Yes" to that question and are very happy with their choice.
  - endemic 3y ago
    I buy Nintendo hardware since it’s the only legit way to play their software.
- NBJack 3y ago
  I agree with this sentiment. As much as it lags the competition, it would be doing even worse had they not marketed the ever loving crap out of their flagship Halo. Remember I Love Bees?
joenot443 3y ago
I think it’s important to note the revenue coming from mobile gamers (generally) isn’t the same revenue that Sony/MS are after here. Very different customer segments with very different demographics. You’re right though, it seems that the mobile sector is growing and the console one has stagnated. I imagine contingent of people who spend big bucks on mobile games _probably_ wouldn’t be spending that money on AAA PS5 games otherwise.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  It can vary. Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail show that there certainly is a console-esque audience you can target, even with mobile style monetization. Their success does make me wonder why the West hasn't attempted something similar since the days of Infinity Blade.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    It's very disappointing that big Japanese mobile and console game industry can't do what Mihoyo did. They should.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  At this point though the PC gaming market is indistinguishable from Xbox which is just a closed down Windows PC with DRM. AFAIK all Xbox games are supposed to be available on PC anyway?
  - asvitkine 3y ago
    There's a difference for MS though, right? I assume it gets a cut off Xbox titles but nothing (other than cementing Windows) for sales of PC titles?
    - moogly 3y ago
      That's why they created GamePass. There's no way that's not operating at a loss right now, but they're playing the long game I suppose.
pictur 3y ago
I don't think mobile games have anything to do with it. It would be more accurate to say mobile applications.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Epic vs. Apple reported that 70% of Apple's revenue on the App store came from mobile games: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-app-store-revenue-from-customers-playing-games.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-a... It really is that big a market.
  - goda90 3y ago
    It's a big market, but is it really competing with other forms of gaming? As an analogy, if someone were buying up all the oven manufacturers, would it matter that microwaves were more widely used?
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      I don't see why it wouldn't. You're probably thinking of just Candy Crush and company but I have games like Final Fantasy 7 and Baldur's Gate on the iPhone. Though more interesting from a money standpoint would be major online games like Fortnite and League of Legends on the iPhone. Every time I want to play a game I have to consider if I want to bust out my laptop, turn on my TV system, or just swipe over to a game on the phone I'm already holding.
      - goda90 3y ago
        Sure, but the experience is different. You can cook a piece of meat in the microwave but it won't be the same as one cooked in an oven or on a stove. I can forsee a future of convergence where a phone is powerful enough to play any games and can just be docked to get the console or PC experience but we're not there yet.
        3y ago
Schnitz 3y ago
I strongly disagree, mobile and console/PC gaming are not competing. It’s a completely different audience, different games and so on. I’d consider them mostly separate markets. The Switch tried to bridge the gap but really didn’t.
- zagrebian 3y ago
  > The Switch tried to bridge the gap but really didn’t. What would the Switch have needed to accomplish to bridge the gap to mobile? Sell 1 billion units?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Allow horrible gatcha games
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      They do, there are some gacha on the switch. Most notably, Genshin was trying to promise a Switch port, but never delivered.
  - tolmasky 3y ago
    To be clear, “mobile” is a distinct category from “handheld”. I am not OP, but to answer your question, I think the idea is that to bridge the gap with mobile gaming the Switch would have to… actually compete in that space. IOW, it has nothing to do with sales. Not many people are considering whether to buy a Switch instead of Candy Crush on their phone. If you ask me how many toasters you have to sell to prove to me you’re in the mobile gaming space, I’d reply that you’re committing a category error. You could sell 1 trillion toasters and still not succeed in “bridging the gap between making toast and mobile gaming”. This is of course a hyperbolic example, and gaming is a gradient with more grey areas and plenty of overlap, but arguably “mobile gaming” in particular is so different from the rest that it is fair to categorize quite differently. There is a good argument that it should if anything instead be compared to gambling from a business model perspective, or social media / content consumption given its expected use environment (on the bus, waiting in line, in bed, etc.).
jorvi 3y ago
> without any leg up in PC or mobile Sony has a stable of desired exclusives (and even exclusive series). Microsoft Gaming doesn’t earn a dime on PC hardware sales. Hell, even the Windows group doesn’t earn more than a couple of bucks on a Windows sale. It’s Microsoft Gaming that is in a bind here.
- a13o 3y ago
  I'm evaluating them ultimately from their technical prospects and on a long timeline. Sony has a bright future as a content curator no doubt. It's their hardware business I think looks shaky. Consider a future where TV sales dwindle, cannibalized by personal screens like tablets and headsets. Or imagine smart tv platforms clamping down on media that they don't get a cut of (anything over that 'obsolete' HDMI port). Those trends are slowly underway, and part of the reason the console segment is not just stagnating, but shrinking. Sony has a big piece of a shrinking segment and no easy way to move to the other gaming segments. Microsoft on the other hand has 3 generations of games that run on Windows, which is still the dominant OS in a growing gaming segment. If we could define the console wars as: who will escape the console segment before it disappears? That is the lens by which I say Sony has the worse hand. They're more likely to become an Atari or Sega at this point than Microsoft is.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > Microsoft on the other hand has 3 generations of games that run on Windows, which is still the dominant OS in a growing gaming segment. But what does it matter that Microsoft owns the OS? They don’t see a dime more because of that except for the OEM Windows fee and tiny sliver from OS ads. Steam is the predominant sales platform on PC, which again Microsoft doesn’t earn a dime from. Sony has ported or is porting all their successful 1st party and 3rd party games. Nothing is stopping them from doing that for all the games they think customers care about. And the supermajority of customers care very little beyond current gen, maybe one gen back. I don’t see consoles shrinking a whole lot either (once you cut out the spike from COVID). I use my PC with a bunch of fancy tricks and Big Picture and it still has plenty of weird bugs. The most recent annoying one is having to manually override DPI scaling on Ori, and choosing my TV as the monitor for Ori and Halo MCC. Funnily enough both Microsoft games (although I am not saying Sony’s games would fare much better). Maybe that a revival of Steam boxes / Steam machines will change that in the future.. or hell, maybe the EU breaks open the console walled garden. Who knows.
Dah00n 3y ago
This is like comparing bikes, cars and motorcycles, saying "the car has won, motorcycle sales have stagnated - get your head out the sand". You cannot just change "Console" to "Computing device that can run a game" because you think it is a better way to look at it. You also count Microsoft as PC + Xbox but not Sony as PlayStation + Phones + TVs etc. all of which has apps and games, making this an extremely arbitrary definition. There's no doubt that a Console is far from the same experience most people have with a PC or a phone. Different, not better. Why do you think most that identify as a gamer own both a Console, a phone and a PC if it is basically the same experience? I own one of each for the exact same reason I own both a car a motorcycle and a bike: They are not at all the same or even related outside having wheels.
jdietrich 3y ago
The revenues in mobile gaming overwhelmingly come from predatory in-app item sales. They aren't in the business of selling games to people who like playing games, they're in the business of psychologically exploiting people who are vulnerable to compulsive behaviours. The industry isn't shy about this - they openly brag about their pursuit of "whales" and their use of psychological manipulation. Frankly, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-marketing/mobile-games/mobile-games-whales https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-marketing/mobile-games/mob...
- bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
  Blurring the line between gambling and gaming.
  - dijit 3y ago
    they even call that section of the industry "iGaming".
- echelon 3y ago
  Mobile games are a pastiche. The viewport is a small number of inches, the types of games are wholly different, the controls are awful. These are not only different consumer segments, they're wholly different products. The FTC is making the right call.
- zardo 3y ago
  If the category includes all mobile games, it should include video gambling machines as well.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Slightly tangential, but I've been watching Duolingo go down this road for the past few years since one of Zynga's product people became their head of product. Duolingo was never the best way to learn a language, but it's increasingly become essentially useless as an educational tool as they push for more and more revenue from their "whales". Every aspect of the experience is shaped towards manipulating people into "engaging" for longer and keeping them coming back, ostensibly to make learning more effective but in practice at the expense of learning. This blog post by their head of product is a great example of the problems in the industry—he talks gleefully about all the manipulative techniques he pulled in from Zynga, and doesn't seem to have any clue that he's sacrificed the mission in pursuit of relentless growth. https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-us...
zeroxfe 3y ago
So how does one find high quality games on mobile? There's so much crap out there on the Play store, it's really hard to pick games. I don't care much about the genre or the price, I just want to play some high quality, low bullshit (no ads, spam, loot boxes, etc.) games. Is there a website that curates games? Edit: turned this into an Ask HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468335
- manzanarama 3y ago
  Apple Arcade?
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  You buy a steam deck. It's kinda a joke, but when I asked myself the question "can I play anything interesting on mobile", the answer I found was that one.
- opan 3y ago
  Check out some free software titles on F-Droid. Shattered Pixel Dungeon and Minetest are a couple examples. Anuto TD is also a decent low-budget-feeling tower defense game (don't set your expectations too high).
LocalH 3y ago
> Xboxes are nothing more than a user-friendly gaming PC brand Also, manufacturer- and publisher-friendly, given the heavy restrictions on the platform. It's bad for preservation that the Xbox One hasn't significantly been cracked yet.
mcpackieh 3y ago
"Self-identified gamers" and those extremely profitable mobile games have virtually nothing to do with each other, the commonality of 'games' is superficial. There's basically no overlap between the consumers of these markets. You might as well compare console games to casino games.
rvba 3y ago
Ypu are writing as if only the winners were making money. What is not true. Consoles, handhelds and PCs can still make a ton of money even when studios are not centralized.
johnchristopher 3y ago
I don't understand why smartphone games are relevant in determining whether or not the FTC is right to have concerns over competition in the console gaming industry. Consoles games aren't the same products than smartphones games. Only xbox, playstation and the nintendo consoles are in the same market (edit: and PC) I do agree console war is outdated and not relevant anymore but it doesn't mean the FTC is wrong. Of course they may be wrong for an entire different set of reasons.
pipes 3y ago
Unfortunately I think you are probably right. One thing I don't get though, why is either ms or Sony still in the console business. It's extremely risky, why bother when real money is mobile? Edit: is pc gaming really growing? That surprises me, I used to really be in to pc games (late 90s). GPUs are ridiculously expensive, is it really big now? It was niche in my day
djmips 3y ago
I don't consider most of mobile gaming 'the gaming industry' - superficially it's the gaming industry but it's some other thing. That's my own opinion and I guess I'm outdated but I never 'game' on mobile.

by a13o 3y ago

madeofpalk 3y ago

Maybe Microsoft could compete by building something people would pay money for, rather than just buying their way to a dominant position?

giantg2 3y ago
I guess the underlying question is, are any of the consoles worth buying? I feel like they aren't.
- WillAdams 3y ago
  The Nintendo Switch is an easy choice if one wants a mix of at-home and mobile gaming and are able to find games w/in its catalog which suit. I just wish someone would make a motion-controlled RPG which had: - the exploration and immersive story of Xenoblade Chronicles - the amazing imagery and intricate puzzles of Pandora's Tower - the endless grinding potential of The Last Story - on-going content like to Diablo 3's Seasons - the fluid transition between ranged combat and melee of Red Steel 2 - the wonderful archery of Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword on the Wii and a story/world where constant replays make sense --- say something like to the Gates of C.J. Cherryh's Morgaine books. (and yes, I should spend more time playing Ring Fit Adventure, but )
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    Yes, why isn't anyone "just" making the perfect game? Look how easy it was to write that list. It's just the best aspect of six games and a series of books. Can't be too hard.
    - oblio 3y ago
      > Yes, why isn't anyone "just" making the perfect game? I think we had a few that tried. We got instant classics released soon after the initial announcement: Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever, etc.
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    The problem with the Switch is, why buy that when you can get a Steam Deck? It’s exclusives aren’t really that exclusive when emulation exists. And all things considered, buying a legal copy of the game and then pirating the game file is equivalent enough to satisfy most moral objections one may have. The PS5 is really the only console with any amount of exclusives, and even then Sony is opening up to PC more and more. So to answer OP, none are really worth by themselves. Online games obviously create different considerations though.
    - jghn 3y ago
      Because I like Nintendo and would like to financially reward them for their efforts?
      - deadbunny 3y ago
        Did you miss the part where they said they bought the game before pirating it? Hardware doesn't make money, software does.
        jghn 3y ago
        No I did not. Sales numbers matter. And Nintendo claims to make a profit on the hardware.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Depends on how much you like messing with drivers, and other hardware issues.
  - ericd 3y ago
    I haven’t had a driver issue in windows in ages, have you? I’m sure they still happen here and there, but I feel like this is mostly an obsolete meme at this point.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      You would be surprised when looking at AAA bug databases, specially graphics and audio. Not everyone buys top quality hardware.
      - ericd 3y ago
        Yeah, fair, I guess I’ve narrowed my vendor list a lot from when I was a teenager, probably a big part of it.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I had no issues with my PC drivers. On the other hand I had to install a sound driver on Xbox for my headset to work...
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Sure...
      - giantg2 3y ago
        For real
        pjmlp 3y ago
        And the driver was installed on XBox putting a USB pen and starting setup.exe..../s
- gilbetron 3y ago
  I love my PS5, as I loved all the playstations, although the xbox 360 saw more use from me for that era. I also game on the PC, but generally I find consoles get more gaming use, because I'm in front of a PC screen all day for work, so it's nice to sit on a coach and play games in the evening. The game catalog is huge, and older games these days are well worth playing. I'd say I'm at about 90% console gaming to 10% pc gaming at this point (no mobile gaming), although it can vary a lot over the years. Also, a console just works (99% of the time), and I don't have to fiddle with drivers and editing config files and the other random crap that can crop up with even the best PC games.
  - carl_dr 3y ago
    > Also, a console just works (99% of the time), and I don't have to fiddle with drivers and editing config files and the other random crap that can crop up with even the best PC games. Another anecdata point - I have several hundred games for PC on Steam, and can’t remember the last time I had an issue with drivers or having to do anything to get games to run.
- tmerc 3y ago
  That depends on what you value in a console. I bought an xbone a few years after I quit wow and got rid of my gaming PC. I don't game much any more but when I want to, I have xbone. 8 years of an appliance that plays games for like $300. My fiance doesn't play PC games but will play Xbox. My cat sitter doesn't need an account on my computer to play fortnight. A gaming PC would be better in most ways but as far as value for dollar, xbone was well worth buying.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I agree they are dirt cheap for the specs. They've just lost the social aspect. I miss the LAN parties with 12-16 guys playing playing together in someone's basement.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  It depends. Can you compare a car and a motorcycle? Maybe, but they really don't compete directly in most cases. I play 90% of my games on my PC but when I play Co-op I always pick the console version of the game if possible because every single time there are problems with either Windows, the game, whatever communication software we use, the network, etc. etc. I can count on one hand how many times I've had these problems since the original Xbox. The whole experience also feels very different. I have also been lucky enough to not once have a console die unlike a PC and I own all my old consoles - again unlike all my PCs (try installing a PlayStation 1 era PC game on a modern PC).
  - giantg2 3y ago
    "try installing a PlayStation 1 era PC game on a modern PC" I still occasionally play F22 TAW and Chamanche Gold. No issues. I've had way more issues like you describe on Xbox with stuff like Halo Infinite than with stuff on PC like Destiny 2. That includes driver issues! (Headset sound on Xbox).
- MegaDeKay 3y ago
  The answer depends on the individual, but millions and millions of people have said "Yes" to that question and are very happy with their choice.
- endemic 3y ago
  I buy Nintendo hardware since it’s the only legit way to play their software.
NBJack 3y ago
I agree with this sentiment. As much as it lags the competition, it would be doing even worse had they not marketed the ever loving crap out of their flagship Halo. Remember I Love Bees?

joenot443 3y ago

I think it’s important to note the revenue coming from mobile gamers (generally) isn’t the same revenue that Sony/MS are after here. Very different customer segments with very different demographics. You’re right though, it seems that the mobile sector is growing and the console one has stagnated. I imagine contingent of people who spend big bucks on mobile games _probably_ wouldn’t be spending that money on AAA PS5 games otherwise.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
It can vary. Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail show that there certainly is a console-esque audience you can target, even with mobile style monetization. Their success does make me wonder why the West hasn't attempted something similar since the days of Infinity Blade.
- fomine3 3y ago
  It's very disappointing that big Japanese mobile and console game industry can't do what Mihoyo did. They should.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
At this point though the PC gaming market is indistinguishable from Xbox which is just a closed down Windows PC with DRM. AFAIK all Xbox games are supposed to be available on PC anyway?
- asvitkine 3y ago
  There's a difference for MS though, right? I assume it gets a cut off Xbox titles but nothing (other than cementing Windows) for sales of PC titles?
  - moogly 3y ago
    That's why they created GamePass. There's no way that's not operating at a loss right now, but they're playing the long game I suppose.

pictur 3y ago

I don't think mobile games have anything to do with it. It would be more accurate to say mobile applications.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
Epic vs. Apple reported that 70% of Apple's revenue on the App store came from mobile games: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-app-store-revenue-from-customers-playing-games.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-a... It really is that big a market.
- goda90 3y ago
  It's a big market, but is it really competing with other forms of gaming? As an analogy, if someone were buying up all the oven manufacturers, would it matter that microwaves were more widely used?
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    I don't see why it wouldn't. You're probably thinking of just Candy Crush and company but I have games like Final Fantasy 7 and Baldur's Gate on the iPhone. Though more interesting from a money standpoint would be major online games like Fortnite and League of Legends on the iPhone. Every time I want to play a game I have to consider if I want to bust out my laptop, turn on my TV system, or just swipe over to a game on the phone I'm already holding.
    - goda90 3y ago
      Sure, but the experience is different. You can cook a piece of meat in the microwave but it won't be the same as one cooked in an oven or on a stove. I can forsee a future of convergence where a phone is powerful enough to play any games and can just be docked to get the console or PC experience but we're not there yet.
      - 3y ago

Schnitz 3y ago

I strongly disagree, mobile and console/PC gaming are not competing. It’s a completely different audience, different games and so on. I’d consider them mostly separate markets. The Switch tried to bridge the gap but really didn’t.

zagrebian 3y ago
> The Switch tried to bridge the gap but really didn’t. What would the Switch have needed to accomplish to bridge the gap to mobile? Sell 1 billion units?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Allow horrible gatcha games
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    They do, there are some gacha on the switch. Most notably, Genshin was trying to promise a Switch port, but never delivered.
- tolmasky 3y ago
  To be clear, “mobile” is a distinct category from “handheld”. I am not OP, but to answer your question, I think the idea is that to bridge the gap with mobile gaming the Switch would have to… actually compete in that space. IOW, it has nothing to do with sales. Not many people are considering whether to buy a Switch instead of Candy Crush on their phone. If you ask me how many toasters you have to sell to prove to me you’re in the mobile gaming space, I’d reply that you’re committing a category error. You could sell 1 trillion toasters and still not succeed in “bridging the gap between making toast and mobile gaming”. This is of course a hyperbolic example, and gaming is a gradient with more grey areas and plenty of overlap, but arguably “mobile gaming” in particular is so different from the rest that it is fair to categorize quite differently. There is a good argument that it should if anything instead be compared to gambling from a business model perspective, or social media / content consumption given its expected use environment (on the bus, waiting in line, in bed, etc.).

jorvi 3y ago

> without any leg up in PC or mobile Sony has a stable of desired exclusives (and even exclusive series). Microsoft Gaming doesn’t earn a dime on PC hardware sales. Hell, even the Windows group doesn’t earn more than a couple of bucks on a Windows sale. It’s Microsoft Gaming that is in a bind here.

a13o 3y ago
I'm evaluating them ultimately from their technical prospects and on a long timeline. Sony has a bright future as a content curator no doubt. It's their hardware business I think looks shaky. Consider a future where TV sales dwindle, cannibalized by personal screens like tablets and headsets. Or imagine smart tv platforms clamping down on media that they don't get a cut of (anything over that 'obsolete' HDMI port). Those trends are slowly underway, and part of the reason the console segment is not just stagnating, but shrinking. Sony has a big piece of a shrinking segment and no easy way to move to the other gaming segments. Microsoft on the other hand has 3 generations of games that run on Windows, which is still the dominant OS in a growing gaming segment. If we could define the console wars as: who will escape the console segment before it disappears? That is the lens by which I say Sony has the worse hand. They're more likely to become an Atari or Sega at this point than Microsoft is.
- jorvi 3y ago
  > Microsoft on the other hand has 3 generations of games that run on Windows, which is still the dominant OS in a growing gaming segment. But what does it matter that Microsoft owns the OS? They don’t see a dime more because of that except for the OEM Windows fee and tiny sliver from OS ads. Steam is the predominant sales platform on PC, which again Microsoft doesn’t earn a dime from. Sony has ported or is porting all their successful 1st party and 3rd party games. Nothing is stopping them from doing that for all the games they think customers care about. And the supermajority of customers care very little beyond current gen, maybe one gen back. I don’t see consoles shrinking a whole lot either (once you cut out the spike from COVID). I use my PC with a bunch of fancy tricks and Big Picture and it still has plenty of weird bugs. The most recent annoying one is having to manually override DPI scaling on Ori, and choosing my TV as the monitor for Ori and Halo MCC. Funnily enough both Microsoft games (although I am not saying Sony’s games would fare much better). Maybe that a revival of Steam boxes / Steam machines will change that in the future.. or hell, maybe the EU breaks open the console walled garden. Who knows.

Dah00n 3y ago

This is like comparing bikes, cars and motorcycles, saying "the car has won, motorcycle sales have stagnated - get your head out the sand". You cannot just change "Console" to "Computing device that can run a game" because you think it is a better way to look at it. You also count Microsoft as PC + Xbox but not Sony as PlayStation + Phones + TVs etc. all of which has apps and games, making this an extremely arbitrary definition. There's no doubt that a Console is far from the same experience most people have with a PC or a phone. Different, not better. Why do you think most that identify as a gamer own both a Console, a phone and a PC if it is basically the same experience? I own one of each for the exact same reason I own both a car a motorcycle and a bike: They are not at all the same or even related outside having wheels.

jdietrich 3y ago

The revenues in mobile gaming overwhelmingly come from predatory in-app item sales. They aren't in the business of selling games to people who like playing games, they're in the business of psychologically exploiting people who are vulnerable to compulsive behaviours. The industry isn't shy about this - they openly brag about their pursuit of "whales" and their use of psychological manipulation. Frankly, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves. https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-marketing/mobile-games/mobile-games-whales https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-marketing/mobile-games/mob...

bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
Blurring the line between gambling and gaming.
- dijit 3y ago
  they even call that section of the industry "iGaming".
echelon 3y ago
Mobile games are a pastiche. The viewport is a small number of inches, the types of games are wholly different, the controls are awful. These are not only different consumer segments, they're wholly different products. The FTC is making the right call.
zardo 3y ago
If the category includes all mobile games, it should include video gambling machines as well.
lolinder 3y ago
Slightly tangential, but I've been watching Duolingo go down this road for the past few years since one of Zynga's product people became their head of product. Duolingo was never the best way to learn a language, but it's increasingly become essentially useless as an educational tool as they push for more and more revenue from their "whales". Every aspect of the experience is shaped towards manipulating people into "engaging" for longer and keeping them coming back, ostensibly to make learning more effective but in practice at the expense of learning. This blog post by their head of product is a great example of the problems in the industry—he talks gleefully about all the manipulative techniques he pulled in from Zynga, and doesn't seem to have any clue that he's sacrificed the mission in pursuit of relentless growth. https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-us...

zeroxfe 3y ago

So how does one find high quality games on mobile? There's so much crap out there on the Play store, it's really hard to pick games. I don't care much about the genre or the price, I just want to play some high quality, low bullshit (no ads, spam, loot boxes, etc.) games. Is there a website that curates games? Edit: turned this into an Ask HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468335

manzanarama 3y ago
Apple Arcade?
Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
You buy a steam deck. It's kinda a joke, but when I asked myself the question "can I play anything interesting on mobile", the answer I found was that one.
opan 3y ago
Check out some free software titles on F-Droid. Shattered Pixel Dungeon and Minetest are a couple examples. Anuto TD is also a decent low-budget-feeling tower defense game (don't set your expectations too high).

LocalH 3y ago

> Xboxes are nothing more than a user-friendly gaming PC brand Also, manufacturer- and publisher-friendly, given the heavy restrictions on the platform. It's bad for preservation that the Xbox One hasn't significantly been cracked yet.

mcpackieh 3y ago

"Self-identified gamers" and those extremely profitable mobile games have virtually nothing to do with each other, the commonality of 'games' is superficial. There's basically no overlap between the consumers of these markets. You might as well compare console games to casino games.

rvba 3y ago

Ypu are writing as if only the winners were making money. What is not true. Consoles, handhelds and PCs can still make a ton of money even when studios are not centralized.

johnchristopher 3y ago

I don't understand why smartphone games are relevant in determining whether or not the FTC is right to have concerns over competition in the console gaming industry. Consoles games aren't the same products than smartphones games. Only xbox, playstation and the nintendo consoles are in the same market (edit: and PC) I do agree console war is outdated and not relevant anymore but it doesn't mean the FTC is wrong. Of course they may be wrong for an entire different set of reasons.

pipes 3y ago

Unfortunately I think you are probably right. One thing I don't get though, why is either ms or Sony still in the console business. It's extremely risky, why bother when real money is mobile? Edit: is pc gaming really growing? That surprises me, I used to really be in to pc games (late 90s). GPUs are ridiculously expensive, is it really big now? It was niche in my day

djmips 3y ago

I don't consider most of mobile gaming 'the gaming industry' - superficially it's the gaming industry but it's some other thing. That's my own opinion and I guess I'm outdated but I never 'game' on mobile.