4 ms·

Yes, that’s how dog whistles work. They have plausible deniability. I’m sure that Wagner group are just fans of classical music and it’s all a big misunderstand

Yes, that’s how dog whistles work. They have plausible deniability. I’m sure that Wagner group are just fans of classical music and it’s all a big misunderstanding!

skissane 3y ago
The other thing about "dog whistles": you can claim anything you want is a "dog whistle", and even if it isn't, it is almost impossible for anybody to prove you wrong. It is an unfalsifiable claim, and unfalsifiable claims rarely have much value. I'm no fan of Wagner PMC – they are brutes guilty of war crimes – but why bother with this worthless "dog whistle" criticism of them when there are lots of real atrocities we can condemn them for?
- realusername 3y ago
  The group is funded by a nazi sympathizer, the name and the skull logo isn't a coincidence....
  - skissane 3y ago
    > The group is funded by a nazi sympathizer Who are you talking about here? Yevgeny Prigozhin? Dmitry Utkin? And what is the evidence either of them is a "nazi sympathizer"? As I said, I'm no fan of either man – I expect the day will come when the ICC indicts both of them for war crimes – but I don't see the point of labelling them as "nazis" on the basis of flimsy evidence. The case that they are war criminals is much stronger than the case that they are Nazis – and surely being a war criminal is a lot worse than being a Nazi (not all of whom were guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity/genocide–Franz von Papen joined the Nazi Party and served Nazi Germany as its ambassador–first to Austria and then to Turkey–but the Nuremberg Trial acquitted him of all charges)
    - realusername 3y ago
      Maybe you should stop to argue in bad faith? The guys behind this are nazis with nazis tatoos, a name and a logo inspired by nazis and are doing nazi-like actions and support nazi racial ideologies.
      - skissane 3y ago
        > Maybe you should stop to argue in bad faith? The site guidelines [0] explicitly say "Assume good faith". So this comment of yours does not appear to be in compliance with them. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        realusername 3y ago
        [flagged]
        skissane 3y ago
        I'm not "Trying to construct threads in bad faith" or "bikeshedding" or whatever else. It isn't a violation of the site guidelines to disagree with you. Also, you accuse me of violating the guidelines, but your allegation never cites their text; whereas, in accusing me of "bad faith" you are violating an explicit statement in them ("Assume good faith")
        realusername 3y ago
        [flagged]
        rewmie 3y ago
        > I'm not "Trying to construct threads in bad faith" or "bikeshedding" or whatever else. It isn't a violation of the site guidelines to disagree with you. This comment is yet another example of how you are not arguing in good faith. You're somehow trying to misrepresent the problem of your insistence in downplaying and even denying evidence of Wagner's neonazi and white supremacists ties as just people disagreeing, and then passing yourself as a victim for being attacked for not agreeing with something. This is a gross misrepresentation of the whole discussion. You're referring to a guy covered in Nazi tattoos who created an organization reflecting Nazi ideology and with known tie with white supremacists and neonazi ideologies as having no objective ties to Nazi ideologies. While you deny that, you're desperately trying to pass off any remark refuting your baseless claim as being attacks o difference of opinions, when actually you're irrationally denying evidence and insisting on pushing a blatantly false idea. You don't seem to be arguing in good faith, and it looks you're trying to manipulate and distort things to whitewash neonazi organizations under the excuse of relativizing evidence, shift burdens of proof, and manipulating objectivisim bars to still claim a fact is not verified in spite of all the evidence and thus it should be treated as false. This is not good faith, and screams as neonazi apologism.
    - rewmie 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 3y ago
        Please don't cross into personal attack or flamewar, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. You can make your substantive points without any of that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Are we the baddies? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

Yes, that’s how dog whistles work. They have plausible deniability. I’m sure that Wagner group are just fans of classical music and it’s all a big misunderstanding!

skissane 3y ago

The other thing about "dog whistles": you can claim anything you want is a "dog whistle", and even if it isn't, it is almost impossible for anybody to prove you wrong. It is an unfalsifiable claim, and unfalsifiable claims rarely have much value. I'm no fan of Wagner PMC – they are brutes guilty of war crimes – but why bother with this worthless "dog whistle" criticism of them when there are lots of real atrocities we can condemn them for?

realusername 3y ago
The group is funded by a nazi sympathizer, the name and the skull logo isn't a coincidence....
- skissane 3y ago
  > The group is funded by a nazi sympathizer Who are you talking about here? Yevgeny Prigozhin? Dmitry Utkin? And what is the evidence either of them is a "nazi sympathizer"? As I said, I'm no fan of either man – I expect the day will come when the ICC indicts both of them for war crimes – but I don't see the point of labelling them as "nazis" on the basis of flimsy evidence. The case that they are war criminals is much stronger than the case that they are Nazis – and surely being a war criminal is a lot worse than being a Nazi (not all of whom were guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity/genocide–Franz von Papen joined the Nazi Party and served Nazi Germany as its ambassador–first to Austria and then to Turkey–but the Nuremberg Trial acquitted him of all charges)
  - realusername 3y ago
    Maybe you should stop to argue in bad faith? The guys behind this are nazis with nazis tatoos, a name and a logo inspired by nazis and are doing nazi-like actions and support nazi racial ideologies.
    - skissane 3y ago
      > Maybe you should stop to argue in bad faith? The site guidelines [0] explicitly say "Assume good faith". So this comment of yours does not appear to be in compliance with them. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - realusername 3y ago
        [flagged]
        skissane 3y ago
        I'm not "Trying to construct threads in bad faith" or "bikeshedding" or whatever else. It isn't a violation of the site guidelines to disagree with you. Also, you accuse me of violating the guidelines, but your allegation never cites their text; whereas, in accusing me of "bad faith" you are violating an explicit statement in them ("Assume good faith")
        realusername 3y ago
        [flagged]
        rewmie 3y ago
        > I'm not "Trying to construct threads in bad faith" or "bikeshedding" or whatever else. It isn't a violation of the site guidelines to disagree with you. This comment is yet another example of how you are not arguing in good faith. You're somehow trying to misrepresent the problem of your insistence in downplaying and even denying evidence of Wagner's neonazi and white supremacists ties as just people disagreeing, and then passing yourself as a victim for being attacked for not agreeing with something. This is a gross misrepresentation of the whole discussion. You're referring to a guy covered in Nazi tattoos who created an organization reflecting Nazi ideology and with known tie with white supremacists and neonazi ideologies as having no objective ties to Nazi ideologies. While you deny that, you're desperately trying to pass off any remark refuting your baseless claim as being attacks o difference of opinions, when actually you're irrationally denying evidence and insisting on pushing a blatantly false idea. You don't seem to be arguing in good faith, and it looks you're trying to manipulate and distort things to whitewash neonazi organizations under the excuse of relativizing evidence, shift burdens of proof, and manipulating objectivisim bars to still claim a fact is not verified in spite of all the evidence and thus it should be treated as false. This is not good faith, and screams as neonazi apologism.
  - rewmie 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 3y ago
      Please don't cross into personal attack or flamewar, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. You can make your substantive points without any of that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Are we the baddies? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY