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Agreed. It’s literally suicide with extra steps, I don’t understand folks’ permissive attitude about such an unnecessarily dangerous activity.

samtho 3y ago
That’s a real disparaging view. It’s pretty clear that he intended to survive all of his climbs.
- jrm4 3y ago
  It's not at all clear by definition of the inherent dangerousness involved.
  - samtho 3y ago
    He had a different risk tolerance and definition of safety. I would not agree that he made wise choice, but there is a difference between wanton recklessness and literally suicidal.
    - jrm4 3y ago
      I agree with your assessment, but I also see no value in "respecting his choices?" Which is to say, if people like him think we're assholes for calling them something-like-if-not-exactly-suicidal, thats fine, I'll be an asshole. I still sleep better calling it out than being silent here.
      - samtho 3y ago
        My issue is less with dardevil climbers being offended and more to do with the dilution of the word “suicidal” which is a term that most sensible people would aged should remain free if hyperbole, disparagement, and overprescription. The article mentions he was battling with depression and actually described suicidal thoughts and ideations. This is very clearly contrasted to his thrill seeking tendencies and the fact he seemed to have goals even if it was to stave off depression. Language is powerful and it’s meaning changes over time, but it is doing a disservice to mental health to simply label actions you find reckless as suicidal to signal your personal disapproval.
        ajhurliman 3y ago
        The guy actually dies due to his reckless/suicidal actions, has suicidal thoughts/ ideation, and you’re just perfectly content with assuming they’re completely unrelated? Has it ever crossed your mind that his mental state manifested itself in his actions that took a sport from moderately dangerous to “flipping the coin on your life”? The most mike blowing part of this is that the part you’re most concerned with is policing the language used in the conversation, not actual outcomes in peoples’ lives. I’m sorry if I’m not young, wild and free like you and him are, but I pity any friends or family who might be in a situation where they need a voice of reason to call them back from making a stupid, life-ending decision and all they have is you telling them “it’s okay as long as it’s within your risk tolerance!”
        jrm4 3y ago
        "Clearly contrasted?" What are you talking about? They're obviously associated, you just SHOWED that. You've provided the best proof possible that "suicidal" is appropriate.
- tombh 3y ago
  Then why didn't he use ropes?
  - samtho 3y ago
    Do you wear a helmet everything you’re in situation where you might hurt your head? If you lived in a world were people wore a helmet every time they drove a motor vehicle, but you were okay without, you may agree that there are benefits, but if you consider an event where it would help you unlikely and you liked the feeling of not wearing a helmet, would you classify that as suicidal? People die of blunt force trauma during car crashes but not protecting yourself does not mean you are having suicidal thoughts and ideation. What he did was objectively more dangerous, but his risk tolerance was different. The part I take issue with is the accusation of being literally suicidal which is a serious matter that many people struggle with and we should not extend that definition to include daredevils.
    - jrm4 3y ago
      Sure we should. Why, precisely, should we NOT? I keep hearing this idea of "it's bad to use the word suicidal except in these very specific cases," and no one's REALLY come up with a genuinely compelling reason not to. Fitting what a book says is not compelling; potentially saving lives is. Not calling someone "suicidal" when they are or merely might be strikes me as infinity worse than calling them suicidal when they're not.
- ajhurliman 3y ago
  It _is_ a disparaging view, and it’s _not_ clear he intended to survive all his climbs or he would have been using ropes. Nothing of valor was achieved, and he performed no virtuous acts. It was a string of stupid, pointless acts which led to his death, and now we have people like you hero-worshipping him. For my own part, I hope that nobody I love ever attempts something like this. If it was an experimental pilot pushing the boundaries of flight or something, sure, there are inherent risks but you’re doing everything you can to mitigate the risk. Climbing without a rope is just turning a past time into a needlessly dangerous pass time, with no benefit or glory.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    "I hope nobody I love ever attempts something like this." THAT's it, exactly. If ANYONE at all values you as a person, doing dumb crap like this is hurtful to them. I believe in personal autonomy, so yes, legally you should be able to do it. But it 99% is a shitty thing to do, to yourself and other people. It's dumb and should be discouraged.
hindsightbias 3y ago
Niche sports are fine, and the losses are probably super low. These are usually highly skilled athletes - and they’d probably be the first to consul an amateur. A friends son-in-law is a Harley no-helmets guy. He died a couple days back on his bike, leaving two kids under 10. Kickstarter and FB is all freedom seeking bikers talking about what a tragedy it is. God’s Will and all that. Perfectly normal behavior and view held by millions and millions.
sneak 3y ago
Suicide itself is, in the philosophy of many, permissible. This isn't congruent with suicide, however. But even if it were, that's permissible, as our lives are our own to use as we see fit. Anything less means you're not free to choose your own destiny. It's unnecessary to you and me, but obviously not to these people. Our own opinions of necessary do not apply to them, only to our own lives.
- jrm4 3y ago
  So to me, this view is technically true, in this case the worst kind of true. I don't think we do the world too many favors with it; better to encourage people that their lives are more valuable than this. (And please never take this to mean never-ever, e.g. euthanasia in cases of extreme physical problems seems fair too)
  - sneak 3y ago
    Some people may believe in the value of these activities even if they view their lives as valuable. You seem to still be viewing these activities through your own lens; ultimately it isn't our place to tell other people what level of value they should place on their lives or what harmless-to-others activities they should or should not engage in thereby. It's simply not our value judgement to make for them.
    - jrm4 3y ago
      Sure it is. It's absolutely my value judgment. Which is to say, if they think I'm an asshole for saying what I'm saying, that's fine, I can live with that -- much more than I could live with pretending that I think it's okay. I suppose it would get dicier if I were thinking about law or policy to put into place here, but I have no problem simply using my words here.

samtho 3y ago

That’s a real disparaging view. It’s pretty clear that he intended to survive all of his climbs.

jrm4 3y ago
It's not at all clear by definition of the inherent dangerousness involved.
- samtho 3y ago
  He had a different risk tolerance and definition of safety. I would not agree that he made wise choice, but there is a difference between wanton recklessness and literally suicidal.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    I agree with your assessment, but I also see no value in "respecting his choices?" Which is to say, if people like him think we're assholes for calling them something-like-if-not-exactly-suicidal, thats fine, I'll be an asshole. I still sleep better calling it out than being silent here.
    - samtho 3y ago
      My issue is less with dardevil climbers being offended and more to do with the dilution of the word “suicidal” which is a term that most sensible people would aged should remain free if hyperbole, disparagement, and overprescription. The article mentions he was battling with depression and actually described suicidal thoughts and ideations. This is very clearly contrasted to his thrill seeking tendencies and the fact he seemed to have goals even if it was to stave off depression. Language is powerful and it’s meaning changes over time, but it is doing a disservice to mental health to simply label actions you find reckless as suicidal to signal your personal disapproval.
      - ajhurliman 3y ago
        The guy actually dies due to his reckless/suicidal actions, has suicidal thoughts/ ideation, and you’re just perfectly content with assuming they’re completely unrelated? Has it ever crossed your mind that his mental state manifested itself in his actions that took a sport from moderately dangerous to “flipping the coin on your life”? The most mike blowing part of this is that the part you’re most concerned with is policing the language used in the conversation, not actual outcomes in peoples’ lives. I’m sorry if I’m not young, wild and free like you and him are, but I pity any friends or family who might be in a situation where they need a voice of reason to call them back from making a stupid, life-ending decision and all they have is you telling them “it’s okay as long as it’s within your risk tolerance!”
      - jrm4 3y ago
        "Clearly contrasted?" What are you talking about? They're obviously associated, you just SHOWED that. You've provided the best proof possible that "suicidal" is appropriate.
tombh 3y ago
Then why didn't he use ropes?
- samtho 3y ago
  Do you wear a helmet everything you’re in situation where you might hurt your head? If you lived in a world were people wore a helmet every time they drove a motor vehicle, but you were okay without, you may agree that there are benefits, but if you consider an event where it would help you unlikely and you liked the feeling of not wearing a helmet, would you classify that as suicidal? People die of blunt force trauma during car crashes but not protecting yourself does not mean you are having suicidal thoughts and ideation. What he did was objectively more dangerous, but his risk tolerance was different. The part I take issue with is the accusation of being literally suicidal which is a serious matter that many people struggle with and we should not extend that definition to include daredevils.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Sure we should. Why, precisely, should we NOT? I keep hearing this idea of "it's bad to use the word suicidal except in these very specific cases," and no one's REALLY come up with a genuinely compelling reason not to. Fitting what a book says is not compelling; potentially saving lives is. Not calling someone "suicidal" when they are or merely might be strikes me as infinity worse than calling them suicidal when they're not.
ajhurliman 3y ago
It _is_ a disparaging view, and it’s _not_ clear he intended to survive all his climbs or he would have been using ropes. Nothing of valor was achieved, and he performed no virtuous acts. It was a string of stupid, pointless acts which led to his death, and now we have people like you hero-worshipping him. For my own part, I hope that nobody I love ever attempts something like this. If it was an experimental pilot pushing the boundaries of flight or something, sure, there are inherent risks but you’re doing everything you can to mitigate the risk. Climbing without a rope is just turning a past time into a needlessly dangerous pass time, with no benefit or glory.
- jrm4 3y ago
  "I hope nobody I love ever attempts something like this." THAT's it, exactly. If ANYONE at all values you as a person, doing dumb crap like this is hurtful to them. I believe in personal autonomy, so yes, legally you should be able to do it. But it 99% is a shitty thing to do, to yourself and other people. It's dumb and should be discouraged.

hindsightbias 3y ago

Niche sports are fine, and the losses are probably super low. These are usually highly skilled athletes - and they’d probably be the first to consul an amateur. A friends son-in-law is a Harley no-helmets guy. He died a couple days back on his bike, leaving two kids under 10. Kickstarter and FB is all freedom seeking bikers talking about what a tragedy it is. God’s Will and all that. Perfectly normal behavior and view held by millions and millions.

sneak 3y ago

Suicide itself is, in the philosophy of many, permissible. This isn't congruent with suicide, however. But even if it were, that's permissible, as our lives are our own to use as we see fit. Anything less means you're not free to choose your own destiny. It's unnecessary to you and me, but obviously not to these people. Our own opinions of necessary do not apply to them, only to our own lives.

jrm4 3y ago
So to me, this view is technically true, in this case the worst kind of true. I don't think we do the world too many favors with it; better to encourage people that their lives are more valuable than this. (And please never take this to mean never-ever, e.g. euthanasia in cases of extreme physical problems seems fair too)
- sneak 3y ago
  Some people may believe in the value of these activities even if they view their lives as valuable. You seem to still be viewing these activities through your own lens; ultimately it isn't our place to tell other people what level of value they should place on their lives or what harmless-to-others activities they should or should not engage in thereby. It's simply not our value judgement to make for them.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Sure it is. It's absolutely my value judgment. Which is to say, if they think I'm an asshole for saying what I'm saying, that's fine, I can live with that -- much more than I could live with pretending that I think it's okay. I suppose it would get dicier if I were thinking about law or policy to put into place here, but I have no problem simply using my words here.