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> With experience you can tell what weight rocks will hold. As a climber, this is total hubris.

hutzlibu 3y ago
You don't recognize the different kinds of rock? Those that are sturdy and those that are brittle? Those that will likely hold and those that will maybe hold? But in case I was not clear, there is surely no 100% certainty. Just like you cannot rule out a rock falling on your head. But you can minimize the risk with experience. There is a difference between climbing in sandstone vs. granite. And the type of sandstone, how much iron it contains(color). How wet it is, etc. Do you debate that?
- dpc050505 3y ago
  Footholds that look like absolutely bomber granite can exfoliate under a fraction of your bodyweight because geological time is now. One of the sturdiest cliffs in Canada, the Stawamus chief, has seen several historical rockfall events in the past couple years. The vast majority of the rock climbers climb is at least a little bit chossy in a way, limestone and sandstone always have small breaks, granite is more solid but when it breaks it's often enormous chunks. You must not have climbed a lot if you've never witnessed freak rockfall, there's a reason why most cliffs are littered by a talus field at the bottom. And that's not to mention loose rock above you which you can't even see and that could rain down on your head. It takes a bird standing on a ledge knocking down a softball sized people for you to eat it in the noggin and fall, or wind, or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time (I've coreshot a rope when natural rockfall rained on me while climbing in a funnelling feature, shit was scary).
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "You must not have climbed a lot if you've never witnessed freak rockfall" I did witness quite some things fall, also sometimes with me being under them. But the point of this thread was the theory, that freeclimbing is a certain path to death. To which I disagree. Unless of course we also say, that climbing with a rope is a certain path to death, because of all the things you cited and that will eventually happen to you, if you do it long enough. I mean, there was recently a whole mountain top collapsing in switzerland. There is nothing you can do, if that happens spontaneous and you are under it, rope or not. And then there is of course the chance you will die in a road accident on the way to the mountain. So I don't understand why you are trying to proof that free solo comes with risks. I am quite aware of it, otherwise I would have been dead a long time ago. And I stated it clearly above. Yes holds can come off. But if you have your weight on other points, you won't fall.
    - jancsika 3y ago
      > Unless of course we also say, that climbing with a rope is a certain path to death, because of all the things you cited and that will eventually happen to you, if you do it long enough. Climbing with a rope is a certain path to falling. Free soloing professionally is a certain path to falling to death, unless you stop free soloing first. I'm not a climber. But reading this thread makes me think maybe the ability to make this distinction could be a kind of fizz/buzz for selecting climbing partners.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "Climbing with a rope is a certain path to falling." Yes. And if you miscalculated, you will still fall on a rock and break your back. Or a sharp rock will cut the rope and you will fall to death. Or the nut will come off and you will fall to death. Or the material was bad and you will fall to death. There are many ways climbing can go wrong (especially if you are inexperienced or careless, most accidents happen on easy routes). And I am quite sure, that the way I was doing freeclimbing, was way more safe, than what many casual hobby climbers are doing with a rope. That is quite often horrific. And this is what I meant with false security.
adastra22 3y ago
Literal survivor bias.
- Fricken 3y ago
  I've been following climbing since the early 90s. Amongst the pros John Bachar is the only guy I can name who died while free soloing in that time. Dan Osman, Alaine Robert, Alex Honnold, Steph Davis, Catherine Destiville, Better Harrington, Hazel Findlay, Will Stanhope, Brad Gobright, Michael Reardon, Peter Croft, Dave McLeod and many others have all accumulated impressive free solo resumes, but did not die while free soloing. (Some of them died, but not from a free soloing fall)
  - justinator 3y ago
    >I've been following climbing since the early 90s. Amongst the pros John Bachar is the only guy I can name who died while free soloing in that time. There was Derek Hersey, who I guess isn't pro, but certainly was prolific. Among other very notable ascents is his triple route linkup on the Diamond of Longs Peak.
  - Vecr 3y ago
    All those people are a subset of people in general who were very good at free soloing. Almost everyone is not part of that group. That's a reasonable argument that it's possible to free solo hard routes multiple times if you are very good at doing so, but it's not a good argument that you should start free soloing. That said I've done some stupid things while hiking that I guess are sort of like free soloing, but on only somewhat inclined surfaces (30-40 degrees? I can't really remember if it was that high) that were only dangerous because of ice or slippery leaves.
    - Fricken 3y ago
      The best argument against free soloing is free soloing. Mortals don't usually get very far before it puts the fear of God in them. The one's who do are wired different, and are outliers even within the climbing community. Myself, I'm a bit stupider. I soloed several radio towers as a teen, and have done my share of questionable scrambling, but I didn't get very far at all with free soloing proper before I started to experience PTSD-like symptoms, and stopped.
ke88y 3y ago
>> With experience you can tell what weight rocks will hold. > As a climber, this is total hubris. LOL. IMO GP is correct on the object level ("you can free solo with zero risk of being killed by a chossy hand hold") and you are correct on detail level ("if you haven't ripped a piece of choss off the wall by surprise maybe get more mileage outside of perfectly manicured de-facto-gym-crags"). Anyways, the point is that the choss risk is usually totally irrelevant. Most soloists don't solo on-sight. By the time you're soloing a route you usually know these sorts of details. TBH being killed by choss is way more likely belayed or at least on a rope because of the route-familiarity bias in soloing. My closest choss-related call was on TRS trundling shit.

You don't recognize the different kinds of rock? Those that are sturdy and those that are brittle? Those that will likely hold and those that will maybe hold? But in case I was not clear, there is surely no 100% certainty. Just like you cannot rule out a rock falling on your head. But you can minimize the risk with experience. There is a difference between climbing in sandstone vs. granite. And the type of sandstone, how much iron it contains(color). How wet it is, etc. Do you debate that?

dpc050505 3y ago
Footholds that look like absolutely bomber granite can exfoliate under a fraction of your bodyweight because geological time is now. One of the sturdiest cliffs in Canada, the Stawamus chief, has seen several historical rockfall events in the past couple years. The vast majority of the rock climbers climb is at least a little bit chossy in a way, limestone and sandstone always have small breaks, granite is more solid but when it breaks it's often enormous chunks. You must not have climbed a lot if you've never witnessed freak rockfall, there's a reason why most cliffs are littered by a talus field at the bottom. And that's not to mention loose rock above you which you can't even see and that could rain down on your head. It takes a bird standing on a ledge knocking down a softball sized people for you to eat it in the noggin and fall, or wind, or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time (I've coreshot a rope when natural rockfall rained on me while climbing in a funnelling feature, shit was scary).
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "You must not have climbed a lot if you've never witnessed freak rockfall" I did witness quite some things fall, also sometimes with me being under them. But the point of this thread was the theory, that freeclimbing is a certain path to death. To which I disagree. Unless of course we also say, that climbing with a rope is a certain path to death, because of all the things you cited and that will eventually happen to you, if you do it long enough. I mean, there was recently a whole mountain top collapsing in switzerland. There is nothing you can do, if that happens spontaneous and you are under it, rope or not. And then there is of course the chance you will die in a road accident on the way to the mountain. So I don't understand why you are trying to proof that free solo comes with risks. I am quite aware of it, otherwise I would have been dead a long time ago. And I stated it clearly above. Yes holds can come off. But if you have your weight on other points, you won't fall.
  - jancsika 3y ago
    > Unless of course we also say, that climbing with a rope is a certain path to death, because of all the things you cited and that will eventually happen to you, if you do it long enough. Climbing with a rope is a certain path to falling. Free soloing professionally is a certain path to falling to death, unless you stop free soloing first. I'm not a climber. But reading this thread makes me think maybe the ability to make this distinction could be a kind of fizz/buzz for selecting climbing partners.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "Climbing with a rope is a certain path to falling." Yes. And if you miscalculated, you will still fall on a rock and break your back. Or a sharp rock will cut the rope and you will fall to death. Or the nut will come off and you will fall to death. Or the material was bad and you will fall to death. There are many ways climbing can go wrong (especially if you are inexperienced or careless, most accidents happen on easy routes). And I am quite sure, that the way I was doing freeclimbing, was way more safe, than what many casual hobby climbers are doing with a rope. That is quite often horrific. And this is what I meant with false security.

adastra22 3y ago

Literal survivor bias.

Fricken 3y ago
I've been following climbing since the early 90s. Amongst the pros John Bachar is the only guy I can name who died while free soloing in that time. Dan Osman, Alaine Robert, Alex Honnold, Steph Davis, Catherine Destiville, Better Harrington, Hazel Findlay, Will Stanhope, Brad Gobright, Michael Reardon, Peter Croft, Dave McLeod and many others have all accumulated impressive free solo resumes, but did not die while free soloing. (Some of them died, but not from a free soloing fall)
- justinator 3y ago
  >I've been following climbing since the early 90s. Amongst the pros John Bachar is the only guy I can name who died while free soloing in that time. There was Derek Hersey, who I guess isn't pro, but certainly was prolific. Among other very notable ascents is his triple route linkup on the Diamond of Longs Peak.
- Vecr 3y ago
  All those people are a subset of people in general who were very good at free soloing. Almost everyone is not part of that group. That's a reasonable argument that it's possible to free solo hard routes multiple times if you are very good at doing so, but it's not a good argument that you should start free soloing. That said I've done some stupid things while hiking that I guess are sort of like free soloing, but on only somewhat inclined surfaces (30-40 degrees? I can't really remember if it was that high) that were only dangerous because of ice or slippery leaves.
  - Fricken 3y ago
    The best argument against free soloing is free soloing. Mortals don't usually get very far before it puts the fear of God in them. The one's who do are wired different, and are outliers even within the climbing community. Myself, I'm a bit stupider. I soloed several radio towers as a teen, and have done my share of questionable scrambling, but I didn't get very far at all with free soloing proper before I started to experience PTSD-like symptoms, and stopped.

ke88y 3y ago

>> With experience you can tell what weight rocks will hold. > As a climber, this is total hubris. LOL. IMO GP is correct on the object level ("you can free solo with zero risk of being killed by a chossy hand hold") and you are correct on detail level ("if you haven't ripped a piece of choss off the wall by surprise maybe get more mileage outside of perfectly manicured de-facto-gym-crags"). Anyways, the point is that the choss risk is usually totally irrelevant. Most soloists don't solo on-sight. By the time you're soloing a route you usually know these sorts of details. TBH being killed by choss is way more likely belayed or at least on a rope because of the route-familiarity bias in soloing. My closest choss-related call was on TRS trundling shit.