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>Third observation was unexpectedly high visible support of Wagner by people. Many laughing at situation or agreeing with Prigozhin‘s demands, some bringing foo

by enjeyw 3y ago

>Third observation was unexpectedly high visible support of Wagner by people. Many laughing at situation or agreeing with Prigozhin‘s demands, some bringing food and water to mercenaries in Rostov. All despite that PMC Wagner is a criminal organization famous for extra-judicial executions, war crimes etc. An organization led by an open nazi (Utkin) and assembled from prisoners, many of which were convicted for violent crimes. It is crazy how people can even think of collaborating with them. This raises an interesting question for me. The invasion of Ukraine enjoys popular support inside Russia - around 70%. The justification continuously put forward regarding why such a large proportion of the Russian population supports the invasion is that they've been brain-washed by state media into believing that Ukraine requires "de-Nazification". That the Wagner group enjoys such popular support, while their Nazi sympathies are also common knowledge^ makes this justification questionable. My best, admittedly totally speculative, guess right now is that the Russian populace has a far better/non-brainwashed understanding of the geopolitical situation than what is commonly suggested, and that while everyone is happy to go along with the de-Nazification pretence, in reality the populace harbours the same ambitions for a return of Russian imperial power that the Russian leadership does, and also holds similar moralistic perspective. ^I believe this to be the case, but I'm not certain. At the very least there doesn't seem a state sponsored campaign to hide it

skissane 3y ago
> That the Wagner group enjoys such popular support, while their Nazi sympathies are also common knowledge^ makes this justification questionable. I remember reading somewhere, that "Nazism" means something rather different in Russian culture than in Western culture. In the West, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Jews, the Holocaust–that's what the school curriculum focuses on. But in Russia, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Russians–that's what the Russian school curriculum focuses on. In the West, "Nazi=homicidal anti-semitism"; in Russia, "Nazi=homicidal Russophobia". But, given that, what sense do they make of a group of Russian "Nazis" who support the Kremlin and fight its wars? It is a bit like if you met a group of neo-Nazis, and discovered they were all openly and proudly Jewish. If something doesn't make sense, people often just choose to pay no attention to it. Similarly, the Russian accusations that Ukraine is a "neo-Nazi regime" seem ludicrous to Western ears – "Zelenskyy is of Jewish descent, his great grandparents died in the Holocaust, how can he be a Nazi?" But to most Russians, for whom the primary meaning of "Nazi" is not "antisemite" but "Russophobe", the idea that "Ukrainian nationalism=Nazism" makes more sense, and Zelenskyy's Jewishness appears irrelevant.
- klyrs 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - skissane 3y ago
    Obviously I didn't downvote you, since you were replying to me, and you can't downvote direct replies. But here's my guess as to why others did it: You didn't come across as getting the point of what I was saying – my point was "if in your own mind, your fundamental definition of group X is that they are anti-Y, people who are (openly and proudly) X and Y simultaneously doesn't make any sense, and when faced with a situation which makes zero sense given pre-existing assumptions, many people will react by just ignoring it". "Neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly Jewish" was just an illustrative example; "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly LGBT" or "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly Romani" or even "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly LGBT Romani", work as examples too. Your comment also comes across as a generic tangent which isn't trying to add anything original or insightful to the discussion, just repeating facts most people here already know. Yes, we all know the Nazis committed crimes against many different groups – you didn't mention the disabled, the mentally ill, Poles, Serbs (murdered by the Nazis' Ustashe allies in Croatia), Black people, Jehovah's Witnesses, Freemasons, the Czechs of Lidice, among others – but is simply pointing that out adding anything useful to the conversation? We don't need to list every single victim of Nazi crimes every time they become the topic, and "you forgot about X, they were victims too" is rarely a valuable contribution. Finally, reaching for "anti-LGBT sentiment" as an explanation for the downvotes, rather than considering other possible explanations, such as those I mention above – isn't helping either.
- kuhewa 3y ago
  > But in Russia, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Russians–that's what the Russian school curriculum focuses on. In the West, "Nazi=homicidal anti-semitism"; in Russia, "Nazi=homicidal Russophobia". In Canada there is a monument to a Nazi SS division [1], because it was made up of Ukrainian volunteers fighting the Soviets, post-Holodomor that was seen as the lesser of two evils. So with that small bit of trivia in mind, your explanation really does make sense and I'm surprised I haven't seen it put or thought of it that way. I reckon that context is probably also relevant to the "nazi-ism" of Ukrainian paramilitary (and now formal military) units like Azov Brigade? (although being close to totally ignorant on the subject, for all I know said groups are equally antisemitic). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis_and_Nazi_collaborators https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis...
stickfigure 3y ago
> around 70% I am deeply suspicious of these kinds of numbers. I just don't see any practical way of getting an honest sample.
- glimshe 3y ago
  Dictatorships tend to be extremely popular. Saddam Hussein, for instance, was elected with 99% approval! These dictators must be good at something.....
fuy 3y ago
70% supporting the war is way way of. Active supporters are likely in 20-25% range, majority would definitely be happy with any reasonable peace deal.
worrycue 3y ago
> in reality the populace harbours the same ambitions for a return of Russian imperial power that the Russian leadership does, and also holds similar moralistic perspective Or people are terrified that if they appear to not be supporting the war they would end up in the gulags or, ironically, get sent to the frontlines with a gun pointed at their back.
andrewflnr 3y ago
> the Russian populace has a far better/non-brainwashed understanding of the geopolitical situation than what is commonly suggested I think this is probably true in a very limited, bone-deep way. They sense the power dynamics, feel the desire to be on top. What's needed is a rationalization for the conscious mind, to ease the path for it to come to the same conclusion, to endorse the actions you already wanted to take. Propaganda does just fine with that. With that said, I think there are pretty large areas of detailed fact re: the state of the invasion, the economy, etc, where they are in fact deceived. All we can say about that is that it's extremely difficult to stand up under a constant barrage of one perspective when that one comes to your door and the other is restricted enough that you at least have to go out of your way for it. Especially if it's been that way your whole life.
gdy 3y ago
"The invasion of Ukraine enjoys popular support inside Russia - around 70%" How can you get this number? Today in Russia any question by a pollster sounds like "Do you support the war or do you want to get fined for "discreditation of the army"?". I remember quite different reaction to the Western polls in Crimea showing that huge majority support reunification with Russia -- "No, no, you can't believe any polls conducted in a non-free country, people there are just afraid to say they hate Russia and want back to the Ukraine". "while their Nazi sympathies are also common knowledge" I don't know anyone who knows that and supports Wagner.
lr1970 3y ago
> The invasion of Ukraine enjoys popular support inside Russia - around 70%. You should not take this number seriously. It has been greatly exaggerated by russian propaganda. At the same time there is no independent reliable polling in russia at this time. Also, Russians are reluctant to share their real views due to harsh criminal+administrative penalties for "spreading fakes about the army". The war vividly exposed all the corruption, grift, lawlessness, inefficiencies in russia on a huge scale. But people are anemic and resined to their fate. 20 years of putin took the wind out of their sails.

by enjeyw 3y ago

skissane 3y ago

> That the Wagner group enjoys such popular support, while their Nazi sympathies are also common knowledge^ makes this justification questionable. I remember reading somewhere, that "Nazism" means something rather different in Russian culture than in Western culture. In the West, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Jews, the Holocaust–that's what the school curriculum focuses on. But in Russia, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Russians–that's what the Russian school curriculum focuses on. In the West, "Nazi=homicidal anti-semitism"; in Russia, "Nazi=homicidal Russophobia". But, given that, what sense do they make of a group of Russian "Nazis" who support the Kremlin and fight its wars? It is a bit like if you met a group of neo-Nazis, and discovered they were all openly and proudly Jewish. If something doesn't make sense, people often just choose to pay no attention to it. Similarly, the Russian accusations that Ukraine is a "neo-Nazi regime" seem ludicrous to Western ears – "Zelenskyy is of Jewish descent, his great grandparents died in the Holocaust, how can he be a Nazi?" But to most Russians, for whom the primary meaning of "Nazi" is not "antisemite" but "Russophobe", the idea that "Ukrainian nationalism=Nazism" makes more sense, and Zelenskyy's Jewishness appears irrelevant.

klyrs 3y ago
[flagged]
- skissane 3y ago
  Obviously I didn't downvote you, since you were replying to me, and you can't downvote direct replies. But here's my guess as to why others did it: You didn't come across as getting the point of what I was saying – my point was "if in your own mind, your fundamental definition of group X is that they are anti-Y, people who are (openly and proudly) X and Y simultaneously doesn't make any sense, and when faced with a situation which makes zero sense given pre-existing assumptions, many people will react by just ignoring it". "Neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly Jewish" was just an illustrative example; "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly LGBT" or "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly Romani" or even "neo-Nazis who are all openly and proudly LGBT Romani", work as examples too. Your comment also comes across as a generic tangent which isn't trying to add anything original or insightful to the discussion, just repeating facts most people here already know. Yes, we all know the Nazis committed crimes against many different groups – you didn't mention the disabled, the mentally ill, Poles, Serbs (murdered by the Nazis' Ustashe allies in Croatia), Black people, Jehovah's Witnesses, Freemasons, the Czechs of Lidice, among others – but is simply pointing that out adding anything useful to the conversation? We don't need to list every single victim of Nazi crimes every time they become the topic, and "you forgot about X, they were victims too" is rarely a valuable contribution. Finally, reaching for "anti-LGBT sentiment" as an explanation for the downvotes, rather than considering other possible explanations, such as those I mention above – isn't helping either.
kuhewa 3y ago
> But in Russia, you say "Nazi" and the first thing most people think of is the Nazi mass murder of Russians–that's what the Russian school curriculum focuses on. In the West, "Nazi=homicidal anti-semitism"; in Russia, "Nazi=homicidal Russophobia". In Canada there is a monument to a Nazi SS division [1], because it was made up of Ukrainian volunteers fighting the Soviets, post-Holodomor that was seen as the lesser of two evils. So with that small bit of trivia in mind, your explanation really does make sense and I'm surprised I haven't seen it put or thought of it that way. I reckon that context is probably also relevant to the "nazi-ism" of Ukrainian paramilitary (and now formal military) units like Azov Brigade? (although being close to totally ignorant on the subject, for all I know said groups are equally antisemitic). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis_and_Nazi_collaborators https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis...

stickfigure 3y ago

> around 70% I am deeply suspicious of these kinds of numbers. I just don't see any practical way of getting an honest sample.

glimshe 3y ago
Dictatorships tend to be extremely popular. Saddam Hussein, for instance, was elected with 99% approval! These dictators must be good at something.....

fuy 3y ago

70% supporting the war is way way of. Active supporters are likely in 20-25% range, majority would definitely be happy with any reasonable peace deal.

worrycue 3y ago

> in reality the populace harbours the same ambitions for a return of Russian imperial power that the Russian leadership does, and also holds similar moralistic perspective Or people are terrified that if they appear to not be supporting the war they would end up in the gulags or, ironically, get sent to the frontlines with a gun pointed at their back.

andrewflnr 3y ago

> the Russian populace has a far better/non-brainwashed understanding of the geopolitical situation than what is commonly suggested I think this is probably true in a very limited, bone-deep way. They sense the power dynamics, feel the desire to be on top. What's needed is a rationalization for the conscious mind, to ease the path for it to come to the same conclusion, to endorse the actions you already wanted to take. Propaganda does just fine with that. With that said, I think there are pretty large areas of detailed fact re: the state of the invasion, the economy, etc, where they are in fact deceived. All we can say about that is that it's extremely difficult to stand up under a constant barrage of one perspective when that one comes to your door and the other is restricted enough that you at least have to go out of your way for it. Especially if it's been that way your whole life.

gdy 3y ago

"The invasion of Ukraine enjoys popular support inside Russia - around 70%" How can you get this number? Today in Russia any question by a pollster sounds like "Do you support the war or do you want to get fined for "discreditation of the army"?". I remember quite different reaction to the Western polls in Crimea showing that huge majority support reunification with Russia -- "No, no, you can't believe any polls conducted in a non-free country, people there are just afraid to say they hate Russia and want back to the Ukraine". "while their Nazi sympathies are also common knowledge" I don't know anyone who knows that and supports Wagner.

lr1970 3y ago

> The invasion of Ukraine enjoys popular support inside Russia - around 70%. You should not take this number seriously. It has been greatly exaggerated by russian propaganda. At the same time there is no independent reliable polling in russia at this time. Also, Russians are reluctant to share their real views due to harsh criminal+administrative penalties for "spreading fakes about the army". The war vividly exposed all the corruption, grift, lawlessness, inefficiencies in russia on a huge scale. But people are anemic and resined to their fate. 20 years of putin took the wind out of their sails.