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FDR's administration was the most effective of the 20th century and was characterized by more top-down control than any other during the period in question. May

FDR's administration was the most effective of the 20th century and was characterized by more top-down control than any other during the period in question. Maybe you don’t like the outcomes, but it can’t be argued that much was accomplished.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Effective at concentration camps, or supreme-court packing? God save us from effective government.
- throw0101a 3y ago
  > Effective at concentration camps, or supreme-court packing? Like Guantanamo or what the GOP is currently doing (e.g., not giving Garland hearings "because it is too close to the election")? Government, and political opportunists, can be effective in both good and bad policies/actions.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    I'd blame those things on the Democrats too. You can't keep cheating and cheating, and then whine that the other side started cheating too just to keep up with you. Obama even had the opportunity to close Guantanamo. Didn't consider it important enough to waste the political capital on. Was more concerned about his team retaining power than doing the right thing. > Government, and political opportunists, can be effective in both good and bad policies/actions. Effectiveness is only ever used with bad policies. I don't know that I've even come close to figuring out the mechanism for it, but there is one that inevitably tips effectiveness towards ends malevolent. If you were to plot out historical leaders for how effective they were on some sort of spectrum, and then plot them out for how evil they were, it'd be the same spectrum.
b59831 3y ago
Worked great for USSR, Venezuela, Cuba, ... FDR also had to deal with things like state's rights... But why worry about nuance?
- harimau777 3y ago
  None of those countries are ones that I think we should be eager to mimic. However, if we are talking about nuance, we should consider: The USSR rapidly went from a relatively backwards nation that had been devastated by WW2 to a highly industrialized world superpower. That's a lot of success even if the costs weren't worth it. Cuba has been hamstrung by US embargoes. Unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough about Venezuela to say.
  - barry-cotter 3y ago
    > The USSR rapidly went from a relatively backwards nation that had been devastated by WW2 to a highly industrialized world superpower. Imperial Russia was one of the most powerful countries in the world prior to WW1 and industrialising very rapidly. One of the reasons the Germans went for it when they did was because they knew that any later they could not beat the Russian Empire. To manage to become a “highly industrialised world superpower” starting with the Russian Empire of 1913 is not an achievement. > Cuba has been hamstrung by US embargoes. No other countries embargo the US and oceanic transport is so cheap they transport onions to Ireland from Australia at a profit. Cuba is a dump because of its government, not because of the US. > Unfortunately I’m not knowledgeable enough about Venezuela to say. Pretty standard communist story. Secret police, middle class and educated flee in their millions, economy collapses.
    - watwut 3y ago
      Imperial Russia was breaking down and on the brink of collapse ...until they violently collapsed. They were also behind western countries technologically and by pretty much all aspects. That includes military being one massive mess with horrible conditions for soldiers and comparatively larger looses. Same thing, west can not go in and occupy current Russia either, but that does not make the country any less dysfunctional mess comparatively. Same with imperial Russia.
pdonis 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

Effective at concentration camps, or supreme-court packing? God save us from effective government.

throw0101a 3y ago
> Effective at concentration camps, or supreme-court packing? Like Guantanamo or what the GOP is currently doing (e.g., not giving Garland hearings "because it is too close to the election")? Government, and political opportunists, can be effective in both good and bad policies/actions.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  I'd blame those things on the Democrats too. You can't keep cheating and cheating, and then whine that the other side started cheating too just to keep up with you. Obama even had the opportunity to close Guantanamo. Didn't consider it important enough to waste the political capital on. Was more concerned about his team retaining power than doing the right thing. > Government, and political opportunists, can be effective in both good and bad policies/actions. Effectiveness is only ever used with bad policies. I don't know that I've even come close to figuring out the mechanism for it, but there is one that inevitably tips effectiveness towards ends malevolent. If you were to plot out historical leaders for how effective they were on some sort of spectrum, and then plot them out for how evil they were, it'd be the same spectrum.

b59831 3y ago

Worked great for USSR, Venezuela, Cuba, ... FDR also had to deal with things like state's rights... But why worry about nuance?

harimau777 3y ago
None of those countries are ones that I think we should be eager to mimic. However, if we are talking about nuance, we should consider: The USSR rapidly went from a relatively backwards nation that had been devastated by WW2 to a highly industrialized world superpower. That's a lot of success even if the costs weren't worth it. Cuba has been hamstrung by US embargoes. Unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough about Venezuela to say.
- barry-cotter 3y ago
  > The USSR rapidly went from a relatively backwards nation that had been devastated by WW2 to a highly industrialized world superpower. Imperial Russia was one of the most powerful countries in the world prior to WW1 and industrialising very rapidly. One of the reasons the Germans went for it when they did was because they knew that any later they could not beat the Russian Empire. To manage to become a “highly industrialised world superpower” starting with the Russian Empire of 1913 is not an achievement. > Cuba has been hamstrung by US embargoes. No other countries embargo the US and oceanic transport is so cheap they transport onions to Ireland from Australia at a profit. Cuba is a dump because of its government, not because of the US. > Unfortunately I’m not knowledgeable enough about Venezuela to say. Pretty standard communist story. Secret police, middle class and educated flee in their millions, economy collapses.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Imperial Russia was breaking down and on the brink of collapse ...until they violently collapsed. They were also behind western countries technologically and by pretty much all aspects. That includes military being one massive mess with horrible conditions for soldiers and comparatively larger looses. Same thing, west can not go in and occupy current Russia either, but that does not make the country any less dysfunctional mess comparatively. Same with imperial Russia.

pdonis 3y ago

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deleted 3y ago

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