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> they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member Which episode were you thinking of? I'm assuming TNG's "Justice"? In ToS "Wolf in the Fold"

> they fail to allow just punishment to happen to that crew member Which episode were you thinking of? I'm assuming TNG's "Justice"? In ToS "Wolf in the Fold", Scott did not commit the crime but was subject to the local authorities; In DS9 "Hard Time" O'Brien did not commit the crime but was subject to and punished by the local authorities; In ToS "A Taste of Armageddon" the entire crew violate local law by not reporting to the disintegration chambers; In ToS "City on the Edge of Forever" Kirk and Spock steal clothing, and Spock steals tools (that one concerned the human race); In "Patterns of Force" Kirk and Spock are arrested and interrogated after stealing clothing and attempting to infiltrate a government building; In VOY "The Chute" Paris and Kim are imprisoned after a false conviction; In VOY "Ex Post Facto" Paris is imprisoned after a false conviction. (Also, Nog attacked an army captain while under detention in New Mexico in DS9 "Little Green Men", and escaped without punishment by the local authorities.) If you are talking about "Justice", I don't think your characterization is quite accurate. In fact, I think you've flipped things? Quoting Memory Alpha at https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_(episode): > Liato feels that Picard is suggesting some kind of a superiority. He suggests that the Enterprise just use their superior powers to rescue the boy, stating that they would just record him as a convicted criminal out of their reach, an advanced person who luckily escaped the barbarism of their "backward little world". But Picard tells them that he wants to honor and respect the Edo's rules and law, referencing the Prime Directive. and > Rivan is amazed at "the city" in the sky, and is surprised that with all this power, they do not just take Wesley. ... > Finally, Picard asks how the Edo God aliens would react if they were to violate the Prime Directive and Data answers that they would consider the Enterprise crew to be "deceitful and untrustworthy" and subsequently reminds Picard that the Edo God aliens warned them to not to interfere with their children below. Picard, before the sundown deadline when Wesley's execution was supposed to take place, instead appeals to the Edo god / high-tech "parent" and receives leniency. Its/their authority is above that of the Mediators, and recognized as such by the Edo.

Ekaros 3y ago
So they broke the rules and did not accept absolutely reasonable and just punishment for the heinous crime. Likely they used something threat of genocide to attain their goals. If you go to different country and break laws, ýou should be fully expected to accept any punishment. Especially when you are specially selected for such missions. And this should extend to anyone you take with you. Just leave the kids and families home if you can not lose risking them when they do evil things.
- eesmith 3y ago
  I take it then "Justice" is the episode you were thinking of? > did not accept absolutely reasonable and just punishment for the heinous crime The Edo "Gods" are recognized by the Edo as being above the power of the Edo. The Edo Gods granted clemency, which was within their power and thus within the Edo legal system. You used the word "heinous". Does the story show the Edo consider it a heinous crime? I suspect that's your personal characterization. At the very least, the Edo youth with Crusher attempted to argue that the crime was done without understanding, which suggests they might consider other crimes (perhaps one carried out with forethought and malice) as more heinous. (If the violation of any law which requires corporal punishment is "heinous" by definition, then the entire crew of the Enterprise in "A Taste of Armageddon" commit a heinous crime by not reporting to the disintegration chambers after the simulated attack on their ship.) > Likely they used something threat of genocide to attain their goals. That makes me think you are talking about another episode? There is no threat of genocide in "Justice", or anything like that. At best the threat was to run away - something even the local authorities pointed out as an option. Further, the Edo Gods' abilities were far superior to that of the Enterprise, eg, almost invisible to sensors, able to shut down the Enterprise transporter remotely, and able to detect the new colony in the nearby star system. There was no conceivable threat of genocide or use of force against the population. > ýou should be fully expected to accept any punishment That's ... just wrong. I mean, in the human system we don't "accept any punishment". We can appeal a punishment to a higher court, or to someone who is empowered to grant a pardon for some or all of that punishment. (Carter pardoned draft dodgers who hadn't even been punished.) Picard figured out that the local legal system did recognize a higher court, as it were, and figured out a successful strategy to appeal to that authority, in a way everyone agreed was justice. Thankfully, punishment was stayed by the supreme local authority. We don't know what would have happened had that not occurred. > Especially when you are specially selected for such missions. I agree. Thing is, they did prepare. Early on Yar reported "the inhabitants' laws and customs are pretty straightforward and nothing out of the ordinary" (quoting Memory Alpha). It was only later, after arrival and further research into the legal system, that they learned they themselves were subject to capital punishment for any violation of the law. Quoting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc : Yar: Careful Commander. They've got some strange laws here. Riker: I thought you reviewed their laws. Yar: They listed nothing about punishment. (IMO they should have requested an emergency beam-out of the entire team at that moment, which would have saved Crusher, but given this is a fictional story, the writers would have made the crime occur just before Yar learned the legal situation they were in.) You characterized this away team's presence on the planet as following a contract. I think it's a valid viewpoint. How valid is a contract where the penalty clauses aren't included in the contract and aren't made aware to one of the signatories? (Still, that doesn't explain why Yar didn't notice that punishment was missing, when it should be part of any similar contract.) > when they do evil things The show only establishes the Edo consider what Crusher did was a crime. We do not know enough about the Edo sense of morality to establish what they consider "evil". In human morality, we do not regard as "evil" every person who commits a crime. Why then do you characterize what Crusher did as an "evil thing"? Or are you speaking abstractly about some hypothetical "evil thing"?

Ekaros 3y ago

So they broke the rules and did not accept absolutely reasonable and just punishment for the heinous crime. Likely they used something threat of genocide to attain their goals. If you go to different country and break laws, ýou should be fully expected to accept any punishment. Especially when you are specially selected for such missions. And this should extend to anyone you take with you. Just leave the kids and families home if you can not lose risking them when they do evil things.

eesmith 3y ago
I take it then "Justice" is the episode you were thinking of? > did not accept absolutely reasonable and just punishment for the heinous crime The Edo "Gods" are recognized by the Edo as being above the power of the Edo. The Edo Gods granted clemency, which was within their power and thus within the Edo legal system. You used the word "heinous". Does the story show the Edo consider it a heinous crime? I suspect that's your personal characterization. At the very least, the Edo youth with Crusher attempted to argue that the crime was done without understanding, which suggests they might consider other crimes (perhaps one carried out with forethought and malice) as more heinous. (If the violation of any law which requires corporal punishment is "heinous" by definition, then the entire crew of the Enterprise in "A Taste of Armageddon" commit a heinous crime by not reporting to the disintegration chambers after the simulated attack on their ship.) > Likely they used something threat of genocide to attain their goals. That makes me think you are talking about another episode? There is no threat of genocide in "Justice", or anything like that. At best the threat was to run away - something even the local authorities pointed out as an option. Further, the Edo Gods' abilities were far superior to that of the Enterprise, eg, almost invisible to sensors, able to shut down the Enterprise transporter remotely, and able to detect the new colony in the nearby star system. There was no conceivable threat of genocide or use of force against the population. > ýou should be fully expected to accept any punishment That's ... just wrong. I mean, in the human system we don't "accept any punishment". We can appeal a punishment to a higher court, or to someone who is empowered to grant a pardon for some or all of that punishment. (Carter pardoned draft dodgers who hadn't even been punished.) Picard figured out that the local legal system did recognize a higher court, as it were, and figured out a successful strategy to appeal to that authority, in a way everyone agreed was justice. Thankfully, punishment was stayed by the supreme local authority. We don't know what would have happened had that not occurred. > Especially when you are specially selected for such missions. I agree. Thing is, they did prepare. Early on Yar reported "the inhabitants' laws and customs are pretty straightforward and nothing out of the ordinary" (quoting Memory Alpha). It was only later, after arrival and further research into the legal system, that they learned they themselves were subject to capital punishment for any violation of the law. Quoting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqa596xxbc : Yar: Careful Commander. They've got some strange laws here. Riker: I thought you reviewed their laws. Yar: They listed nothing about punishment. (IMO they should have requested an emergency beam-out of the entire team at that moment, which would have saved Crusher, but given this is a fictional story, the writers would have made the crime occur just before Yar learned the legal situation they were in.) You characterized this away team's presence on the planet as following a contract. I think it's a valid viewpoint. How valid is a contract where the penalty clauses aren't included in the contract and aren't made aware to one of the signatories? (Still, that doesn't explain why Yar didn't notice that punishment was missing, when it should be part of any similar contract.) > when they do evil things The show only establishes the Edo consider what Crusher did was a crime. We do not know enough about the Edo sense of morality to establish what they consider "evil". In human morality, we do not regard as "evil" every person who commits a crime. Why then do you characterize what Crusher did as an "evil thing"? Or are you speaking abstractly about some hypothetical "evil thing"?