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Microsoft are killing it. Perhaps surprisingly, they seem to be the only ones who really "get it".

by llimos 3y ago

tredre3 3y ago
> Perhaps surprisingly Surely this is surprising only to very young people? Remember Developers Developers Developers? Microsoft has always had, by far, the best development experience of all the major platforms. Their dev tools have been top notch since the 90s. Of course nowadays CLion/Rider do provide a very similar desktop dev experience, so clearly Jetbrains also gets it. But it can't compete with how well integrated VS is with Windows in my experience.
- zenapollo 3y ago
  Not just young people. Windows is still bad software - eg i apparently cannot turn off bing search in my moms start menu. Also behavior like forcing apps (eg teams) to run at startup. ubiquitous telemetry (pretty much full on spying), default settings in edge. I could go on. I have been massively impressed with VS code, it’s good software. Maybe they “get it” re developers. But as a consumer, i don’t think they do get it. I think their fans must have Stockholm syndrome.
  - tredre3 3y ago
    Yes Microsoft's is treating its users poorly and their software is generally pretty bad (par for the course for silicon valley these days, unfortunately). But why must any mention of Microsoft devolve to that commentary? We were discussing their dev tools which were, and are, very good. Let's leave it at that.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  I think it depends on your background. A decade ago, web developer experience for non-MS stacks on Windows was significantly inferior to MacOS, mainly because all the best tooling was *nix based. I don’t know what the situation is like today as I haven’t touched Windows in years, but my opinion of Microsoft DX is very low. In fact, the thought of developing on Windows is so visceral that I wouldn’t even consider a job if I were forced to use Windows. Conversely, if you’ve been developing within the MS ecosystem then I bet you’ll have a completely different opinion.
  - apetresc 3y ago
    As a classical, old-school *nix-style developer, I can confidently say things have changed in Windows-land. Between WSL2, VS Code, scoop/winget, Windows Terminal, and dozens of small quality-of-life advancements, Windows has shockingly become a very comfortable, ergonomic development environment for lots of things that have nothing to do with .NET, Windows SDK, etc.
    - earthling8118 3y ago
      Yet the above comment isn't talking about modern windows, but instead the past. The 90s were referenced specifically. I think those things have improved the situation a lot, but are still not comfortable enough to be enticing. So 30 years ago it definitely wasn't.
      - apetresc 3y ago
        I was referring to the statement “I don’t know what the situation is like today as I haven’t touched Windows in years, but my opinion of Microsoft DX is very low.”
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    As someone that has mainly done Web development in Java and .NET stacks, knows UNIX since I used Xenix in 1993, and used most of the big names. Windows is perfectly fine for Web development, never missed UNIX while using it. On the other hand, XEmacs was the rescue to sanity in a world depleted of nice tools like Borland IDEs.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Only after Borland management lost it. They never had anything like Turbo Vision for MS-DOS, unless one counts the very first VB versions, which were interpreted. They were the last vendor to have a C++ compiler for MS-DOS, with the release of Microsoft C/C++ 7.0. MFC always felt a poorer experience than Object Window Library and Visual Components Library. Visual Basic had to reach version 6 to offer the compilation features, and COM development of Delphi 1.0. Visual C++ never was as visual as C++ Builder. But yeah, as Borland lost it, and went through all the mess, Visual Studio is now the best IDE for Windows development.

Microsoft are killing it. Perhaps surprisingly, they seem to be the only ones who really "get it".

by llimos 3y ago

Microsoft are killing it. Perhaps surprisingly, they seem to be the only ones who really "get it".

> Perhaps surprisingly Surely this is surprising only to very young people? Remember Developers Developers Developers? Microsoft has always had, by far, the best development experience of all the major platforms. Their dev tools have been top notch since the 90s. Of course nowadays CLion/Rider do provide a very similar desktop dev experience, so clearly Jetbrains also gets it. But it can't compete with how well integrated VS is with Windows in my experience.

zenapollo 3y ago
Not just young people. Windows is still bad software - eg i apparently cannot turn off bing search in my moms start menu. Also behavior like forcing apps (eg teams) to run at startup. ubiquitous telemetry (pretty much full on spying), default settings in edge. I could go on. I have been massively impressed with VS code, it’s good software. Maybe they “get it” re developers. But as a consumer, i don’t think they do get it. I think their fans must have Stockholm syndrome.
- tredre3 3y ago
  Yes Microsoft's is treating its users poorly and their software is generally pretty bad (par for the course for silicon valley these days, unfortunately). But why must any mention of Microsoft devolve to that commentary? We were discussing their dev tools which were, and are, very good. Let's leave it at that.
shortcake27 3y ago
I think it depends on your background. A decade ago, web developer experience for non-MS stacks on Windows was significantly inferior to MacOS, mainly because all the best tooling was *nix based. I don’t know what the situation is like today as I haven’t touched Windows in years, but my opinion of Microsoft DX is very low. In fact, the thought of developing on Windows is so visceral that I wouldn’t even consider a job if I were forced to use Windows. Conversely, if you’ve been developing within the MS ecosystem then I bet you’ll have a completely different opinion.
- apetresc 3y ago
  As a classical, old-school *nix-style developer, I can confidently say things have changed in Windows-land. Between WSL2, VS Code, scoop/winget, Windows Terminal, and dozens of small quality-of-life advancements, Windows has shockingly become a very comfortable, ergonomic development environment for lots of things that have nothing to do with .NET, Windows SDK, etc.
  - earthling8118 3y ago
    Yet the above comment isn't talking about modern windows, but instead the past. The 90s were referenced specifically. I think those things have improved the situation a lot, but are still not comfortable enough to be enticing. So 30 years ago it definitely wasn't.
    - apetresc 3y ago
      I was referring to the statement “I don’t know what the situation is like today as I haven’t touched Windows in years, but my opinion of Microsoft DX is very low.”
- pjmlp 3y ago
  As someone that has mainly done Web development in Java and .NET stacks, knows UNIX since I used Xenix in 1993, and used most of the big names. Windows is perfectly fine for Web development, never missed UNIX while using it. On the other hand, XEmacs was the rescue to sanity in a world depleted of nice tools like Borland IDEs.
pjmlp 3y ago
Only after Borland management lost it. They never had anything like Turbo Vision for MS-DOS, unless one counts the very first VB versions, which were interpreted. They were the last vendor to have a C++ compiler for MS-DOS, with the release of Microsoft C/C++ 7.0. MFC always felt a poorer experience than Object Window Library and Visual Components Library. Visual Basic had to reach version 6 to offer the compilation features, and COM development of Delphi 1.0. Visual C++ never was as visual as C++ Builder. But yeah, as Borland lost it, and went through all the mess, Visual Studio is now the best IDE for Windows development.