5 ms·
> That's just kind of... bleh? Especially when, yes, you consider the ethnic stereotypes "culture of sneering traders who will cheat you" evokes. But even witho
by pierat 3y ago
> That's just kind of... bleh? Especially when, yes, you consider the ethnic stereotypes "culture of sneering traders who will cheat you" evokes. But even without those stereotypes, it's just kind of childish.
I get on one level that the Bajorans were much like the historical Jewish peoples, conquered and then freed.
But.... I always thought that the Ferenghi were the eponymous Jew stereotype. Short stature, crooked teeth, would cheat you at a drop of a hat, overly large ears, code of conduct to only deal with their race. It feels like they were created in the antisemitic light of "Happy Merchant" ( https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/happy-merchant ).
Obviously, those are antisemitic tropes for starting to dehumanize Jews. But damn, when I saw them in ST:TNG, that's exactly what I thought Rodenberry was trying to portray.
- edvinbesic 3y agoI thought the Ferenghi were supposed to represent human greed.
- pmoriarty 3y agoThey're cringe-inducing, antisemitic caricatures of Jewish people. They're kind of like the Star Trek counterpart to Jar Jar Binks.
- shkkmo 3y agoI think seeing them as caricatures is itself antisemitic. There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. In TNG they might be one dimensional like Jar Jar, but I think the Ferengi get a lot of nuanced characters in DS9 that blow Jar Jar Binks out of the water in depth. Rom's evolution is particularly great.
- pharrington 3y ago>There really are no similarities I see between the Ferengi and Jewish people. Correct. But there is a whole lotta similarity between the Ferengi and real life antisemetic caricatures, as is easily seen by any internet search for "antisemitic caricatures".
- shkkmo 3y agoSure, but acknowledging them as caricatures seems to me to be to legitimizing the anti-semitic stereotypes since a charicature is a portrayal that exaggerates existing characteristics. Thus I maintain that claiming that the characteristics exhibited by the Ferengi are an exaggeration of Jewish traits is itself racist.
- uoaei 3y agoUnderstanding and describing how racists talk about the groups they hate is not racist.
- pierat 3y agoIndeed. And unfortunately, unmoderated and less moderated subcultures have this in spades. It's also why I chose to link to the ADL in this description, rather than other meme sites. It provides the much needed context that the initial linked picture was done in the 1990s, by "A. Whytt Mann". Naturally, the Ferenghis were made as a personification of the worst that capitalism has to offer. However, the caricature itself of the Ferenghi turned into something quite terrible indeed. And as some have said here and claimed of me, this isn't my antisemitism showing. In fact, scholars have mirrored my own thoughts: > In his 2007 critique of The Next Generation for the National Review, the commentator Jonah Goldberg described the Ferengi as "runaway capitalists with bullwhips who looked like a mix between Nazi caricatures of Jews and the original Nosferatu."[28] The scholar of religion Ross S. Kraemer wrote that "Ferengi religion seems almost a parody, perhaps of traditional Judaism."[25] He wrote that the 285 Rules of Acquisition bore similarities with the 613 Commandments of Judaism and that the Ferengi social restrictions on women mirrored Orthodox Judaism's restrictions on women studying the Torah.[25] Historian Paul Sturtevant wrote in 2018 that not only are the Ferengi "extremely legalistic" and "defined by their greed", echoing common stereotypes of Jews, but the major Ferengi characters on Deep Space Nine were all played by Jewish actors.[29] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi And the 285 rules of acquisition vs 613 commandments ties back to the main article, since I like to keep tying back in. That just seems to be way too many "coincidences" for me to be comfortable with.
- lanstin 3y agoThe similarity is between the Ferengi and the anti-Jewish propaganda that is so common historically.
- flangola7 3y agoJar jar? What racial stereotype is he
- beardog 3y ago>They're kind of like the Star Trek counterpart to Jar Jar Binks. Ahmed Best, Jar Jar's voice and mo-cap actor person of color, finds the racial commentary about the character offensive and nearly committed suicide over the negativity and harassment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNiSkd3HfI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfNiSkd3HfI
- DropInIn 3y agoNo. Just because you have prejudices you apply to the work does not mean the creators did, which is where any factuality of racism or caricature could come to be. Your prejudices and experiences aren't shared by everyone else, which means that they may create material that has zero negative features but for which You Perceive negative features due exclusively to Your Prejudices.
- andrepd 3y agoIsn't that a bit... strange? You see a caricature of greed and you immediately think of Jews, doesn't that say something about yourself?
- throw0101a 3y agoOriginally, yes: > The Original Series had come from hostility between the US and the USSR during the Cold War, Wright sought an equivalent relevant to the US of the era he was living in, the 1980s. There was meanwhile a palpable feeling that the nation's financial sector was essentially full of greedy barbarians, a notion Wright transplanted into the futuristic science-fiction setting of The Next Generation. (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 36) Rob Bowman offered, "The Ferengi sprung from the stereotype of agents and lawyers being cutthroat, greedy and wanting only money." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 21, No. 2, p. 35) Wright thus conceived the Ferengi as a species of profit-obsessed, ruthless aliens. He was especially fond of the contrast between them and the crew of the Enterprise-D, who had no desire or need for money. (Star Trek: The Next Generation 365, p. 36) * https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi#Origins https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ferengi#Origins Things got tweaked over time of course.
- MawKKe 3y agoWe're all Ferengi now...
- g8oz 3y agoI always thought it was interesting that the writers named the group after a real historical label for (Western European) foreigners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Legacy
- dotancohen 3y agoAs were the Romulans.
- toyg 3y agoAt what point trying to label something as racist ends up backfiring? For people born toward the end of last century, the stereotypes you mention barely register at all. I only know them for having studied Weimar at undergrad level, but tbh the only stereotype of Jewishness, for me and my peers, is of well-dressed New Yorker professionals and LA executives using funny words. Without comments as yours, I honestly would never have thought of late-1800s caricatures of Jews when looking at a Ferengi. You are effectively re-popularizing something that is utterly dead in the mainstream.
- brookst 3y agoYou’re kind of advocating the “let’s all pretend the past didn’t happen” theory of easing racial tensions by never mentioning slavery, etc. It’s a viewpoint, but I’m very skeptical. IMO it is perfectly reasonable to contextualize a fictional race by the creators and the time it was created. Intentional ignorance and choosing to ignore reality never sit well with me. I’m more in the “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it” camp myself.
- DropInIn 3y agoNo. A Character Type is different than a Caricature, which is Specifically when one is representing a Specific Person or Peoples. When there is no such intent and is not based explicitly in such prior art, such characters are just that purely imaginary characters with zero bearing on real world racism. Enough with the bs.
- grog454 3y agoThis is a strange take that seems best described as "raciphobia". It's not "bs" to ask whether or suggest that a creative work was inspired by a stereotype. There's the creator's intent which can't really be known. Then there's the observer's interpretation which is equally valid.
- Izkata 3y agoWe can know in this case: It wasn't, back when the Ferengi were first created their civilization was more like a cross between conquerors and pirates than anything else. Their current depiction evolved slowly over the course of TNG.
- at_a_remove 3y agoA friend of mine, half-Korean, made a tremendous case that the Ferengi were stereotypes of Koreans and I wish I had recorded it, because it was thoughtful and well-supported. I guess some stereotypes are really archetypes and people fit them as needed ... or as feared about one's self.
- DropInIn 3y agoNearly everyone thinks the ferengi are a stereotype of them, from Capitalists to Jews to Koreans and where I live pretty much every ethnicity has had a stereotype of greed at some point because of population distribution and the nature of segregation into specific industries (banking, car sales, etc)... Right now people are saying Indians/Pakistanis/Punjabs/etc are greedy because they are the vast majority of used car salesmen where I am, and I'm certain that they'd feel similarly about the representation of ferengi. Ferengi are compilations of some of the least pleasant parts human nature. All people are manifest therein, because We're All Horrible.