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You might be interested in reading the classical book about cultural difference by Geert Hofstede as it provides another perspective on this. He describes what
by olau 3y ago
You might be interested in reading the classical book about cultural difference by Geert Hofstede as it provides another perspective on this.
He describes what he calls uncertainty avoidance cultures that try to reduce uncertainty by making lots of rules. These end up being impossible to follow, so it's generally expected that you don't. He contrasts this with cultures that are low on uncertainty avoidance that have fewer rules, but on the other hand it's expected that they are followed.
This is probably to some degree a caricature.
- mrtksn 3y agoThanks, I should check it out. How do they explain Germany though?
- vertis 3y agoIn a park in Stuttgart a man approached us as we were walking the dog, and after realising we spoke English politely said "You must not be aware, dogs must be on lead here".
- heavenlyblue 3y agoSo would a person from any country who supports that specific law would do...
- vertis 3y agoI don't think so. Often I see people in the UK breaking rules like that and it's almost never mentioned. But it wasn't just that he mentioned it. It was the way he mentioned it. That the only possible reason for us to not be following the rules was that we must not know them.
- Leherenn 3y agoWasn't it just being polite?
- vertis 3y agoThat's a possible interpretation as well. But having travelled extensively (and I'm not the rule breaker in most cases), there are very very different approaches to rules and laws even within Europe. There is a section of Europe where following the rules is what you do (to be clear it's not just Germany[0]). It's assumed that you're going to follow the rules. Adults don't need to be policed in this way. The rules are there for a reason (second order thinking). Then there are large parts of Europe where there are rules but if they're not enforced then people will by and large not obey them. See, for example, the UK putting in smart motorways (aka, average speed cameras), because before that people would fly up the motor way well above the speed limit. The Autobahn might have areas with no speed limit, but on the sections that HAVE speed limits you'd be hard pressed to find someone breaking those limits. I grew up in Australia where it's somewhere between the two. The enforcement of the rules is strict. I once got a jaywalking ticket for crossing an empty road in Melbourne (long story, but it's also one of my stupider moments because it wasn't like the police were behind a bush, they hopped off the same tram I did). I haven't had a speeding or parking ticket since I left Australia. Though, circling back to my Stuttgart story, if someone approached you about rule breaking in Australia you can almost guarantee that you'd have pissed them off to the point it would not have been polite. In Paris, as well, I have been yelled at (in French) for dog poop on a sidewalk that wasn't even my dogs -- yes, I do always pick up after my dog. [0]: Even within Germany I'm sure there are variations on this.
- Scarblac 3y agoIn the Netherlands, when riding a bicycle, most people treat most traffic rules as suggestions. Interesting context to explain what's happening. This is made possible by the fact that cars (try to) follow traffic rules to the letter. (Essentially every car driver in the Netherlands is also a cyclist at other times)
- 3y ago
- konschubert 3y agoI live in Germany. Our park has a daily meet up of dog owners letting their dogs roam. The rule says they should be on the leash. Nobody follows it.
- vertis 3y agoYour anecdote is stronger than my anecdote :)
- konschubert 3y agoyea, I'm afraid I'm not adding much to the discussion. In the end, it doesn't matter if Germany really is like this - the idea of an orderly country still exists.
- vertis 3y agoI beg to differ, counterpoints are always useful. I have an outsiders view of Germany. I've seen large chunks of it. Even stopped for a month or two (Munich, Berlin). But I don't speak German, or at least not enough to be useful (Mein Deutsch ist nicht gut). I visit a park once or twice, not with a group that you get to know. My lack of German may well have changed the interaction I mentioned.
- konschubert 3y agoHaha. Just for the record, I am not part of the dog owners group :) I don't think it's nice to let a dog roam in the park, kids get scared, and things can go wrong.
- vertis 3y agoAh, I read that differently. Yeah, it depends on the dog I guess. I have an English Cocker Spaniel which the worst risk is probably knocking someone over. I'm generally not pro breaking rules like that, and in the case above I actually hadn't seen the sign (it was not well posted). I do generally go out of my way to translate rules where necessary.
- heavenlyblue 3y ago> Often I see people in the UK breaking rules like that and it's almost never mentioned. Because UK people generally don't care about breaking the rules of no-BBQ in the park. What happens though when someone jumps a queue?
- School-Cotton 3y agoThis is simply not true. Most people in New York would not say anything, regardless of whether they support the law or not. I saw people without masks on the subway every day while they were required and nobody ever said anything to them.
- lsaferite 3y agoI'd imagine that comes partially from risk assessment. Is the risk of a highly negative interaction worth highlighting the rules infraction? AKA, is it potentially worth my life to tell someone they aren't following the rules.
- civilitty 3y agoAmerica: where you get shot asking someone to pick up their dog's poop.
- froggit 3y agoAmerica: where you get shot picking up someone else's dog's poop.
- School-Cotton 3y agoIt is partly that, and partly because so many people are breaking rules constantly that it just seems normal.
- TheSpiceIsLife 3y agoGood. Mask mandates are an extremely unskilled method of encouraging a behaviour. The mandate resulted in many people putting any old piece of cloth over their faces. Mask mandates enabled the topic to become a political issue. Therefore, the refusal of many to comply is the more correct decisions. Stupid rules should be broken, and the rule makers ridiculed and removed from office. If your response to a crisis to become a tyrant, you are not fit to lead.
- 3y ago
- yard2010 3y agoI think it's a great example of social policing, which IMHO better than anorganic, artificial traditional policing. But I'm still not 100% percent sure what he meant because I don't speak german.
- BearOso 3y agoI'm 100% sure he meant a leash or restraint. It's obvious from context.
- froggit 3y ago> But I'm still not 100% percent sure what he meant because I don't speak german. Nobody said anything in German though. A German man said something in English. From what I can tell, you've got speaking english in your skill set.
- dwaite 3y agoIt is more of a difference in British English, where a leash is used to control a large/dangerous animal, while a lead is used more cooperatively (like walking a dog). I heard lead quite a bit from trainers, and assume their choice in nomenclature is part of the general positive reinforcement nature of modern dog training.
- 13of40 3y agoThat's kind of a funny example, because my go-to on the subject is that if you visit a park in Washington State (or most of the US) you are immediately hit with a wall of text that starts with "no alcohol" but goes on to describe every annoying boom box cruising fireworks soliciting vending way you could potentially annoy someone. In Germany you can just sit on the grass, crack a beer, and watch the river roll by.
- Kim_Bruning 3y agoGood Q. From my own short stint in Germany, n=1, the rules often did tend to make sense, so it actually seemed like a good idea to follow them. (I've also had friends complain that Germany wasn't actually as tidy or rules based as they were lead to believe. So take with a grain of salt!)
- throwaway2037 3y agoTo clarify, are you categorising German culture as low uncertainty avoidance? I am not sure that I would.