3 ms·

> And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. Hard

> And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman. Hardly. Valve has been doing this with Steam for years. Microsoft does it with Xbox Live. It's the main caveat of a managed environment, sometimes the manager makes the wrong decisions. This might be bad or distasteful, but it's not novel or unique. It's par for the course when it comes to software distributed through a central DRM system. > Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one. You can do that with iOS too. Likewise, If Google decides to revoke your access to your Gmail account that all your Android purchases are associated with because you violated Gmail policy perhaps, you would be in the same boat. Once again, not unique to Apple. Par for the DRM course.

JoshTriplett 15y ago
I don't think you've actually disagreed with the original point in any way. :) As you point out, Steam and Xbox Live have exactly the same disturbing retroactive revocation property that Apple does; that doesn't make it any less of a horror story, just more disturbing that people put up with it. (I suspect people mostly just don't think about it, because it probably won't come up for them.)
- shinratdr 15y ago
  But so do Android Market purchases, and any other managed DRM system. You put up with it just like everyone else. Where I disagree is my level of concern. I have plenty of games on Steam and plenty of purchases on the iOS and Mac app stores. It doesn't bother me because it's status quo. I got over it quite some time ago.
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    No, I don't. :) And the ease with which this can become "status quo" makes it that much more of a horror story.
    - shinratdr 15y ago
      Fair enough, I just assumed from the Android comment. IMO you're making your own life harder for dubious benefit, but whatever floats your boat. It's true that if you use no digital services and buy almost no mobile apps, you can avoid this. That kind of blows, though.
      - JoshTriplett 15y ago
        I didn't comment on Android, though in the case of Android you can at least bypass the Android market and install arbitrary apps without revocation. (I don't have an Android device, though; still looking for a comparable replacement for my n900, since it won't last forever.) I use quite a few digital services, just not any that control my access to bits I've already purchased. And I use a pile of mobile apps, all FOSS.
        shinratdr 15y ago
        I wouldn't even consider the entirety of mobile apps ported to the N900 a pile, but whatever. GP commented on Android and you followed up pretty directly, so I just assumed. True, I should have said the vast majority of popular digital services, not ones targeted towards the kind of people that would use an N900 to make a point.
        JoshTriplett 15y ago
        At the time I wrote my comment, the original post hadn't actually mentioned Android; that appeared in a later edit. > True, I should have said the vast majority of popular digital services, not ones targeted towards the kind of people that would use an N900 to make a point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman ? :) I don't think services offering the not-quite-purchase of data represent "the vast majority of popular digital services". Also, services like Netflix don't have this problem, since they very clearly position themselves as analogous to a rental, not a purchase. iTunes, the Android Market, Xbox Live, and Steam all very much position themselves as purchasing mechanisms, which makes the ability to retroactively revoke purchases unacceptable. (And I don't use an N900 to make a point; I use it because it does the things I want it to do better than anything else I've tried, and that includes Android devices. I only mentioned it because you seemed to assume that since I didn't use iTunes or Android I must not use mobile apps at all.)
spindritf 15y ago
> Hardly. Valve has been doing this with Steam for years. Microsoft does it with Xbox Live. Which is disturbing but when it regards software your livelihood depends upon, not "just" games, the story gets that additional umpf. > Once again, not unique to Apple. Sure, but the article is about Apple.
- shinratdr 15y ago
  > Which is disturbing but when it regards software your livelihood depends upon I like the implication that nobodies livelihood depends on a game. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sorry but to find it disturbing it kind of has to be novel, and it's not. IMO it's pretty sad that what is supposedly a community of developers is "shocked" by something that has been going on for years now on plenty of platforms, including iOS and Android. You might still have a problem with it but it shouldn't cause an incredulous reaction like that. > Sure, but the article is about Apple. I'm not discussing the article, I'm discussing your incredulous reaction like this is something out of some dream. It's not, in fact there is tons of precedent for it.

JoshTriplett 15y ago

I don't think you've actually disagreed with the original point in any way. :) As you point out, Steam and Xbox Live have exactly the same disturbing retroactive revocation property that Apple does; that doesn't make it any less of a horror story, just more disturbing that people put up with it. (I suspect people mostly just don't think about it, because it probably won't come up for them.)

shinratdr 15y ago
But so do Android Market purchases, and any other managed DRM system. You put up with it just like everyone else. Where I disagree is my level of concern. I have plenty of games on Steam and plenty of purchases on the iOS and Mac app stores. It doesn't bother me because it's status quo. I got over it quite some time ago.
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  No, I don't. :) And the ease with which this can become "status quo" makes it that much more of a horror story.
  - shinratdr 15y ago
    Fair enough, I just assumed from the Android comment. IMO you're making your own life harder for dubious benefit, but whatever floats your boat. It's true that if you use no digital services and buy almost no mobile apps, you can avoid this. That kind of blows, though.
    - JoshTriplett 15y ago
      I didn't comment on Android, though in the case of Android you can at least bypass the Android market and install arbitrary apps without revocation. (I don't have an Android device, though; still looking for a comparable replacement for my n900, since it won't last forever.) I use quite a few digital services, just not any that control my access to bits I've already purchased. And I use a pile of mobile apps, all FOSS.
      - shinratdr 15y ago
        I wouldn't even consider the entirety of mobile apps ported to the N900 a pile, but whatever. GP commented on Android and you followed up pretty directly, so I just assumed. True, I should have said the vast majority of popular digital services, not ones targeted towards the kind of people that would use an N900 to make a point.
        JoshTriplett 15y ago
        At the time I wrote my comment, the original post hadn't actually mentioned Android; that appeared in a later edit. > True, I should have said the vast majority of popular digital services, not ones targeted towards the kind of people that would use an N900 to make a point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman ? :) I don't think services offering the not-quite-purchase of data represent "the vast majority of popular digital services". Also, services like Netflix don't have this problem, since they very clearly position themselves as analogous to a rental, not a purchase. iTunes, the Android Market, Xbox Live, and Steam all very much position themselves as purchasing mechanisms, which makes the ability to retroactively revoke purchases unacceptable. (And I don't use an N900 to make a point; I use it because it does the things I want it to do better than anything else I've tried, and that includes Android devices. I only mentioned it because you seemed to assume that since I didn't use iTunes or Android I must not use mobile apps at all.)

spindritf 15y ago

> Hardly. Valve has been doing this with Steam for years. Microsoft does it with Xbox Live. Which is disturbing but when it regards software your livelihood depends upon, not "just" games, the story gets that additional umpf. > Once again, not unique to Apple. Sure, but the article is about Apple.

shinratdr 15y ago
> Which is disturbing but when it regards software your livelihood depends upon I like the implication that nobodies livelihood depends on a game. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sorry but to find it disturbing it kind of has to be novel, and it's not. IMO it's pretty sad that what is supposedly a community of developers is "shocked" by something that has been going on for years now on plenty of platforms, including iOS and Android. You might still have a problem with it but it shouldn't cause an incredulous reaction like that. > Sure, but the article is about Apple. I'm not discussing the article, I'm discussing your incredulous reaction like this is something out of some dream. It's not, in fact there is tons of precedent for it.