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I don't even understand why it became political. What incentive do people on the left have to deny the obvious conclusion that it came from the lab?

asynchronous 3y ago
[Current thing] says X. You must follow [current thing]. Critical thinking not allowed.
metamet 3y ago
I think there's some confusion and rewriting of history going on here. The left wasn't denying the possibility that it leaked from the Wuhan lab. This was a theory very early on and it wasn't "denied" more that it wasn't substantiated. It became political when it was asserted by people on the right, without any actual research or investigation, that was an intentional release from China. Majority of that blame falls on Trump's inability to understand or articulate nuanced topics, particularly within geopolitical contexts. Instead of figuring out how to defeat the virus, majority of their energy went into pointing the finger at who to blame--a far easier task than being an actual leader.
- baumy 3y ago
  Candidly, I think that this comment is actually the one rewriting history. There absolutely, 100% was complete denial, all originating on the political left, that a leak from a lab in China was a possibility. No confusion about intentional vs accidental - total denial of the possibility in any way shape or form. Suggesting it was possible, much less plausible or even likely, was labeled racist. Attempts were made (with limited success) to suppress discussion about it, by removing the topic from social media feed recommendations and what not. Someone else can look up sources for all of this if they want, but I don't feel the need to. It was just a couple years ago, and I remember it perfectly. I presume you just spend your time consuming healthier discourse than I do, which probably means you make some better choices in your free time than I do, so I'm not accusing you personally of this - but the walking back of all the effort made to deny and suppress discussion about this issue and pretend it never happened feels a lot like gaslighting.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Yeah that's what I remember too. Pelosi made a big statement about going to eat in Chinatown in response, and in general it was quickly an issue that the left pounced on so they could say Trump was an idiot and a racist.
    - metamet 3y ago
      > it was quickly an issue that the left pounced on so they could say Trump was an idiot and a racist. Trump did that to himself with his response by trying to stir xenophobic hate by calling it "The China Virus".
  - metamet 3y ago
    Odd, I remember it perfectly well, too. > There absolutely, 100% was complete denial, all originating on the political left, that a leak from a lab in China was a possibility. Well, that's just patently wrong. There was not "complete denial" by any means, as the majority of scientists were open to any and all possibility of origin. As such, the left--who was following those scientists--maintained the same position. Saying that "there is no evidence that it was leaked" is not blanket denial. It is just that--there is no evidence, thus the possibility remains open but shouldn't be entertained as decisive. Yet many politicians on the right, despite there being no evidence, dug their feet into the ground, convinced it was. Not sure how you got the impression that not having evidence of something equates to "complete denial", but it's incorrect. > Suggesting it was possible, much less plausible or even likely, was labeled racist. We knew the virus originated in the Wuhan region of China. Don't pretend that suppression occurred because of simple discussion of the topic--it was predominantly due to politicians raging xenophobic wars by trying to rename it "The China Virus".
  - try_the_bass 3y ago
    My recollection is closer to GP's than to yours, fwiw. Not exactly the same, but I do recall that a lot of the pushback from the left was because every publication on the right was busy hitching the "it originated as a lab-modified virus" motte to the "it was intentionally released/it was a bioweapon" bailey.
- ESTheComposer 3y ago
  Man you are rewriting history for sure. Twitter was banning Wuhan lab theories as misinformation and Fauci's leaked emails show him asking the NIH to further "put down" the lab leak theories.
  - felixgallo 3y ago
    At the time, it was absolutely misinformation. That it may actually be true doesn’t make it less so.
    - ESTheComposer 3y ago
      What? It was misinformation then but it might be true so its ok now? That means it wasn't misinformation then either. Also who decides what is misinformation?
      - abracadaniel 3y ago
        If I claim that aliens are manipulating our weather and that proof exists, when it doesn’t, that is misinformation. There is no evidence to support my claim, and it is wrong, even if I believe it to be true. If aliens show up tomorrow and announce they have been messing with the weather, then we have the evidence and it is true, but I was still spreading misinformation.
        dent9876543 3y ago
        There was once this crank who claimed the Earth orbited the Sun, and not the other way around... That was misinformation too, no?
        felixgallo 3y ago
        No. He had evidence, based on direct observation. The claims made at the time with Covid and the lab leak theory had no evidence and were made entirely for political purposes.
      - 3y ago
- rcme 3y ago
  I’m not on the left or the right, but I am an avid NYT reader and the paper was definitely equating lab leak with crazy conspiracy theory at the time. Here is an example from 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronaviru... The title is “Senator Tom Cotton Repeats Fringe Theory of Coronavirus Origins” It opens with: > The rumor appeared shortly after the new coronavirus struck China and spread almost as quickly: that the outbreak now afflicting people around the world had been manufactured by the Chinese government. > The conspiracy theory lacks evidence and has been dismissed by scientists. But it has gained an audience with the help of well-connected critics of the Chinese government such as Stephen K. Bannon, President Trump’s former chief strategist. And on Sunday, it got its biggest public boost yet. It’s worth noting that the conspiracy they mention is that the virus was manufactured by the Chinese government. However, the only direct quote they provide from Cotton is this: > “We don’t have evidence that this disease originated there,” the senator said, “but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says, and China right now is not giving evidence on that question at all.” This was just the first result from a quick Google search: “nyt 2020 lab leak conspiracy”. There were definitely many other examples.
Glyptodon 3y ago
Nobody said what they meant with enough clarity. And then it became tribal.
jeezfrk 3y ago
because bats deliver viruses all the time. Chinese people eat many animals bitten by bats all the time. nothing is obvious-true because someone likes how simple it is. nothing becomes obvious-false because someone thinks it's not simple enough. any other thinking is pre-chewed lies faking as news.
revelio 3y ago
> What incentive do people on the left have to deny the obvious conclusion that it came from the lab? Huh, isn't that kind of obvious? A big part of left wing ideology is progressivism, which is an exaltation of progress. The exact definition of progress changes over time, but the idea is at heart about having the most intelligent and specialized people being granted power to re-organize society for the greater good, as they see it. It is explicitly against the public making their own decisions in a decentralized way (neither via markets nor politicians), because it's assumed they're too stupid to do so with good outcomes. Core to this worldview is the belief that there are such people as neutral experts, wise intellectuals, morally uncorrupted regulators and so on. You have to believe these people exist and in large numbers, otherwise the core progressivist project falls apart because who would be in charge of society? So the left are very keen on regulators, NGOs and especially "scientists", by which they don't mean corporate scientists but academics and government lab workers. They see in such people the core of the progressive project. Motivated by the greater good rather than self-centered profit, they deploy their superior skill and wisdom to make the world better. So COVID comes along and it appears at first to be the perfect vehicle for validating the progressive project. Nature attacks, and who will defeat it? Not politicians or ordinary people! It will be the scientists and public health officials - but they say they can only do it if they're awarded total power over our lives, if politicians and markets are disposed of entirely and if we're all forced to act in concert (so we get collectivism as well as progressivism). Ideal! The lab leak conspiracy turns this progressive dream into a nightmare. Suddenly the experts, the public health officials etc aren't the heroes of the story anymore, they're the villains. It turns a story about the virtues of progressive power into a story about how supposedly intelligent people killed millions through a foolish, careless and ultimately useless pursuit of abstract "progress" without regard to risks. And if they lied and covered up that then what else might they be lying about? How can anyone defend these people as superior leaders when they behave this way? So depending on whether or not it came from a lab, the conclusions can switch from total validation of left wing goals to total repudiation. Of course they will never accept that it came from a lab leak.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Some world-class putting words in peoples mouths there. We learn more about the speaker when such nonsense is repeated.

asynchronous 3y ago

[Current thing] says X. You must follow [current thing]. Critical thinking not allowed.

metamet 3y ago

I think there's some confusion and rewriting of history going on here. The left wasn't denying the possibility that it leaked from the Wuhan lab. This was a theory very early on and it wasn't "denied" more that it wasn't substantiated. It became political when it was asserted by people on the right, without any actual research or investigation, that was an intentional release from China. Majority of that blame falls on Trump's inability to understand or articulate nuanced topics, particularly within geopolitical contexts. Instead of figuring out how to defeat the virus, majority of their energy went into pointing the finger at who to blame--a far easier task than being an actual leader.

baumy 3y ago
Candidly, I think that this comment is actually the one rewriting history. There absolutely, 100% was complete denial, all originating on the political left, that a leak from a lab in China was a possibility. No confusion about intentional vs accidental - total denial of the possibility in any way shape or form. Suggesting it was possible, much less plausible or even likely, was labeled racist. Attempts were made (with limited success) to suppress discussion about it, by removing the topic from social media feed recommendations and what not. Someone else can look up sources for all of this if they want, but I don't feel the need to. It was just a couple years ago, and I remember it perfectly. I presume you just spend your time consuming healthier discourse than I do, which probably means you make some better choices in your free time than I do, so I'm not accusing you personally of this - but the walking back of all the effort made to deny and suppress discussion about this issue and pretend it never happened feels a lot like gaslighting.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Yeah that's what I remember too. Pelosi made a big statement about going to eat in Chinatown in response, and in general it was quickly an issue that the left pounced on so they could say Trump was an idiot and a racist.
  - metamet 3y ago
    > it was quickly an issue that the left pounced on so they could say Trump was an idiot and a racist. Trump did that to himself with his response by trying to stir xenophobic hate by calling it "The China Virus".
- metamet 3y ago
  Odd, I remember it perfectly well, too. > There absolutely, 100% was complete denial, all originating on the political left, that a leak from a lab in China was a possibility. Well, that's just patently wrong. There was not "complete denial" by any means, as the majority of scientists were open to any and all possibility of origin. As such, the left--who was following those scientists--maintained the same position. Saying that "there is no evidence that it was leaked" is not blanket denial. It is just that--there is no evidence, thus the possibility remains open but shouldn't be entertained as decisive. Yet many politicians on the right, despite there being no evidence, dug their feet into the ground, convinced it was. Not sure how you got the impression that not having evidence of something equates to "complete denial", but it's incorrect. > Suggesting it was possible, much less plausible or even likely, was labeled racist. We knew the virus originated in the Wuhan region of China. Don't pretend that suppression occurred because of simple discussion of the topic--it was predominantly due to politicians raging xenophobic wars by trying to rename it "The China Virus".
- try_the_bass 3y ago
  My recollection is closer to GP's than to yours, fwiw. Not exactly the same, but I do recall that a lot of the pushback from the left was because every publication on the right was busy hitching the "it originated as a lab-modified virus" motte to the "it was intentionally released/it was a bioweapon" bailey.
ESTheComposer 3y ago
Man you are rewriting history for sure. Twitter was banning Wuhan lab theories as misinformation and Fauci's leaked emails show him asking the NIH to further "put down" the lab leak theories.
- felixgallo 3y ago
  At the time, it was absolutely misinformation. That it may actually be true doesn’t make it less so.
  - ESTheComposer 3y ago
    What? It was misinformation then but it might be true so its ok now? That means it wasn't misinformation then either. Also who decides what is misinformation?
    - abracadaniel 3y ago
      If I claim that aliens are manipulating our weather and that proof exists, when it doesn’t, that is misinformation. There is no evidence to support my claim, and it is wrong, even if I believe it to be true. If aliens show up tomorrow and announce they have been messing with the weather, then we have the evidence and it is true, but I was still spreading misinformation.
      - dent9876543 3y ago
        There was once this crank who claimed the Earth orbited the Sun, and not the other way around... That was misinformation too, no?
        felixgallo 3y ago
        No. He had evidence, based on direct observation. The claims made at the time with Covid and the lab leak theory had no evidence and were made entirely for political purposes.
    - 3y ago
rcme 3y ago
I’m not on the left or the right, but I am an avid NYT reader and the paper was definitely equating lab leak with crazy conspiracy theory at the time. Here is an example from 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronaviru... The title is “Senator Tom Cotton Repeats Fringe Theory of Coronavirus Origins” It opens with: > The rumor appeared shortly after the new coronavirus struck China and spread almost as quickly: that the outbreak now afflicting people around the world had been manufactured by the Chinese government. > The conspiracy theory lacks evidence and has been dismissed by scientists. But it has gained an audience with the help of well-connected critics of the Chinese government such as Stephen K. Bannon, President Trump’s former chief strategist. And on Sunday, it got its biggest public boost yet. It’s worth noting that the conspiracy they mention is that the virus was manufactured by the Chinese government. However, the only direct quote they provide from Cotton is this: > “We don’t have evidence that this disease originated there,” the senator said, “but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says, and China right now is not giving evidence on that question at all.” This was just the first result from a quick Google search: “nyt 2020 lab leak conspiracy”. There were definitely many other examples.

Glyptodon 3y ago

Nobody said what they meant with enough clarity. And then it became tribal.

jeezfrk 3y ago

because bats deliver viruses all the time. Chinese people eat many animals bitten by bats all the time. nothing is obvious-true because someone likes how simple it is. nothing becomes obvious-false because someone thinks it's not simple enough. any other thinking is pre-chewed lies faking as news.

revelio 3y ago

> What incentive do people on the left have to deny the obvious conclusion that it came from the lab? Huh, isn't that kind of obvious? A big part of left wing ideology is progressivism, which is an exaltation of progress. The exact definition of progress changes over time, but the idea is at heart about having the most intelligent and specialized people being granted power to re-organize society for the greater good, as they see it. It is explicitly against the public making their own decisions in a decentralized way (neither via markets nor politicians), because it's assumed they're too stupid to do so with good outcomes. Core to this worldview is the belief that there are such people as neutral experts, wise intellectuals, morally uncorrupted regulators and so on. You have to believe these people exist and in large numbers, otherwise the core progressivist project falls apart because who would be in charge of society? So the left are very keen on regulators, NGOs and especially "scientists", by which they don't mean corporate scientists but academics and government lab workers. They see in such people the core of the progressive project. Motivated by the greater good rather than self-centered profit, they deploy their superior skill and wisdom to make the world better. So COVID comes along and it appears at first to be the perfect vehicle for validating the progressive project. Nature attacks, and who will defeat it? Not politicians or ordinary people! It will be the scientists and public health officials - but they say they can only do it if they're awarded total power over our lives, if politicians and markets are disposed of entirely and if we're all forced to act in concert (so we get collectivism as well as progressivism). Ideal! The lab leak conspiracy turns this progressive dream into a nightmare. Suddenly the experts, the public health officials etc aren't the heroes of the story anymore, they're the villains. It turns a story about the virtues of progressive power into a story about how supposedly intelligent people killed millions through a foolish, careless and ultimately useless pursuit of abstract "progress" without regard to risks. And if they lied and covered up that then what else might they be lying about? How can anyone defend these people as superior leaders when they behave this way? So depending on whether or not it came from a lab, the conclusions can switch from total validation of left wing goals to total repudiation. Of course they will never accept that it came from a lab leak.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Some world-class putting words in peoples mouths there. We learn more about the speaker when such nonsense is repeated.